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Posted: Friday, January 21, 2011 12:57:34 PM

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I've been seeing a lot of press about this book, Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother, so I bought it. It's about a Chinese-American who chooses to raise her two daughters in the traditional way that she was raised, which is kind of stereotypically known as the "Asian" way (not just Chinese) of parenting. For her, this meant, no free internet surfing, no tv, no sleepovers, mandatory mastery of a musical instrument, demands of straight As in school or else, and very harsh threats and taunts for motivation.

Long story short, both her kids were the envy of other parents, and in her words, "the results are hard to quarrel with." She maintains that "Asian" children are no less happy or more maladjusted than "Western" children, but that political correctness and cultural difference has watered down the way her cultural counterparts go about raising children as the second- and third-generation ethnic Asians grow up in Canada and the US.

She says that even though her chosen style of parenting (Tiger mother) is traditional and common in Chinese culture, it's not about being Chinese, its about a philosophy of demanding greatness and giving no quarter when it comes to your children, as opposed to "Western" parenting, which is regarded as "soft", and many would say that all one has to do is take a long look at what goes on in the public schools to prove that point.

I'm not just asking for a 'yay or nay' discussion of Chinese parenting. I also think there is a lot to share and learn between us in terms of what we think about this, and about how we were raised, etc.

I don't think any kid comes out of childhood without some kind of scarring, right? Were you raised by lax parents? Were you raised by hard-asses? What about those of you that are parents, where do you stand on this?
Posted: Friday, January 21, 2011 2:33:21 PM

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As a mom, here's my opinion....

Each of my children is so different. As such, they each need to be raised differently, according to what suits him/her best. There is no "one size fits all" with regard to parenting.
Posted: Friday, January 21, 2011 4:55:40 PM

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There are harsh demands put on children who raised in the traditional Asian way. I do believe that kids should be allowed to be kids, but there is a happy medium too. I've seen a lot of lax parenting styles resulting in kids that end up in trouble, and are unfocused and disrespectful of authority or responsibility. Having said that, it's well known that asian students have enormous pressures on them to be "super achievers", and being unable to live up to expectations, can sometimes have extreme consequences. I thought this was an interesting article on that subject.

News Article wrote:

Three Chinese-American students at the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) have killed themselves in the last three months. Two died by helium asphyxiation and the cause of death of the third student, though deemed a suicide, is yet to be determined. Their stories have been covered in the Chinese language media, but remain virtually unreported in the mainstream.

These suicides are anything but isolated incidents. Popular opinion may project Asians and Asian Americans as super achievers, scoring high on the SAT, dominating prestigious colleges and working as high-paid professionals, but the dark side of that narrative is that they are much more likely than the average American to commit suicide, according to a recent report from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

At Cornell University, for instance, 13 of the 21 student suicide victims between 1996 and 2006 were Asians or Asian Americans. That picture is not complete unless you consider that Asians make up of only 14 percent of the total Cornell student body. Cornell is so concerned that in 2002 it formed a special Asian and Asian American Campus Climate Task Force to look into the reason behind the high number of suicides.

Stanley Sue, a professor of psychology and Asian-American studies at the University of California at Davis who has studied suicide rates among Asian Americans, believes part of the problem is that Asian Americans are not likely to talk about their psychological problems.

"Community practitioners notice that Asian Americans are less likely to self-disclose their personal problems," Sue told Time magazine article in 2008. Asian Americans are also less likely than other groups to rely on mental health services, according to studies, and they prefer instead to rely on culturally acceptable traditions of discipline and family order.

For years, while reporting from East Asia, I often read stories of students throwing themselves on train tracks or out the windows, when they failed an important exam. From Hong Kong to Tokyo to Taipei to Hanoi, these young people cracked under pressure and, robbed of what they know best, many are often confronted with dreaded feelings of loss and despair.

I remember, too, an incident during my freshman year at Berkeley when a studious Chinese student living in my dorm tried to jump from the Campanile, the tallest structure on campus. He wanted to kill himself because, according to the gossip, he had never gotten a B before, until vector calculus or some such difficult class overwhelmed him. It took hours before he was talked down. After that incident, authorities put up metal bars to stop future jumpers.

As for myself, I was raised with certain expectations... it wasn't lax nor was it extremely strict either. But I was put into every extracurricular activity imaginable. The arts are important in my family and so it was expected that I would also be exposed to them as a child with the assumption that I would be interested in and/or successful at them. That often left for little free time to enjoy being a kid and later a teenager. Between ballet, dance, gymnastics, figure skating, piano lessons, and the expectations to get good grades, there was not a whole lot of time to do my own thing. Which is maybe why I rebelled later in life. A kid can definitely crack under stress and and I definitely felt the pressure to be "perfect". If I was pushed, however, it did give me the training grounds for my profession, so I'm grateful for that. As far as discipline goes, I was a pretty good kid, so there wasn't really much effort required to keep me in line. I really didn't have much time to get into trouble as a kid... I saved that for later. geek

Posted: Friday, January 21, 2011 5:22:41 PM

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Some parents go too far and some kids are just weak. I think common sense would tell us that right? The suicide with the Asians does not surprise me. The whole thing for Asians in school and business is to achieve and succeed your whole life. Between what is drilled in your head by your parents and by what you see around from others like you, I am not sure it can just be turned off like that.

My mom was really hard on us as kids. My brother did really good in all of his school grades and now he does really good in the work world too. He never stops trying and we are all proud of him. I did okay in school and wow did my mom and I have some screaming matches, and I would get called names and told I was shaming them, and on and on. It did not mean I was not loved, I knew the difference. But they wanted me to achieve things I was not achieving and so they fought back on it. I'm kinda the black sheep, I have not gone to college and I am not a doctor or a banker. I am not bragged on like my brother but I am not a failure even though I am told I did in some ways. If they were not so hard on me what would I be now? Maybe I did as good as I did because of that pressure. I was smart enough to get by as it was but I knew better than to come home with Cs too many times or I would get punished big time. My dad told me if I didnt average Bs at least that I would have to find a new place to stay and that worked at least through high school. I kept that B average!

So what is worse for kids, to be hard on them and push them to be their best or to be their buddy and let them do whatever? The ones that are weak will crack up and go crazy or kill themselves from the pressure. And the weakest ones that are never punished or forced to do anything might be criminals or potheads their whole life. The strongest will survive either kind of parenting in my opinion.
Posted: Friday, January 21, 2011 5:57:00 PM

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My parents weren't strict, but they were far from being the do-what-you-want style of parents. We had rules to follow and consequences if we failed to do what was asked of us. We also had the freedom to go out and do our own thing, where we played in the streets until dinner time each day. My parents knew all our friends and their parents. We weren't allowed to swear at all and manners were and still are very important. We were never put in after school activities because there was always a strong focus on family time and being together. I've become that kind of parent myself. I see after school classes as a way for parents to keep their kids busy without having to put any effort into it other than driving them there. I think one-on-one time with kids is far more important. That may not be the case, it's just the way I was brought up.

My husband and I are definitely not "helicopter parents" who constantly hover over their kids, too scared to let them experience the world, but neither of us want to be so laid back that they think of us as friends either.

We're both learning as we go and something new crops up almost every day that we've got to figure out a plan of action for.
Posted: Friday, January 21, 2011 6:53:32 PM

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I was definitely pressured and manipulated growing up. I was a straight A student, but that wasn't good enough. My parents knew I could be top of the class if I wanted to, but by high school I just wasn't interested in school. I love learning, but I grew to hate the structure of school, the one size fits all learning. My mom and I definitely fought over my math scores, since they usually had a homework component to them, and I didn't see the point of doing 20 questions a night when I fully understood the material with less than 5 questions. The last 15 just seemed like punishment for being smarter than the rest of the kids. With my own kids I would much rather teach the joys of learning, than the need to just do what the teacher tells you.

The fights over school were just the tip of the ice berg. Worse was the religious pressure and censorship. I was the oldest child, so my parents essentially learned with me, and then adjusted for my younger siblings. For example, I wasn't allowed to watch The Simpsons until I was in high school. It was deemed inappropriate. Shows that even mentioned sex at all were frowned upon even when I was in high school. And then came the biggest issue I had. When my sister got her license, it was made very clear that she would get the car instead of me if she was going to be going to a church related event. Since we lived in the middle of nowhere, (15 minute drive to the closest town) a car was vitally important. And since I had no interest in religion, I either had to sit at home alone, or buy myself a car, while my sister got the use my parents' car because she agreed with their religious life style. Not being religious obviously means that I'm not likely to shove my religion on my children, but I still think I would encourage my kids to think about why they believe what they believe, and let them decide for themselves.

As Penny mentioned above, you need to realize that each of your kids is different, and that they need to be treated accordingly. I would never argue that you should be your child's friend, though I would hope to have a very good relationship with my kids. The important thing would be that I would still be their dad. I make the laws, I protect, I comfort, and I punish. Too many parents don't seem to take responsibility for their child's actions. You have to find that line, of giving them freedom, but stepping in when they need to.

But having been someone who was forced to practice the piano for 30 minutes every day, and scolded any time I didn't put my best effort in to school, I believe that the overbearing, or demanding approach doesn't help the child. For me, being told to do this stuff so that the future would be better for me, has made me almost too conscious of that. I can't just let go and do something fun with no thought about the consequences, and I definitely envy the people who can do that. They are having fun, while I'm thinking about the steps I need to take to get to the next goal. And there's always a next goal to chase.
Posted: Saturday, January 22, 2011 8:39:13 AM

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Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,773
Maybe it all depends on what you think the whole point of being a parent is. If the main point is to raise a person who will do right in life, be successful, and more than likely teach the same in their own kids, then I would have to say that "Tiger" parenting is hard to argue with. If the point is to have lots of laughs together, and learn together instead of just teaching and ordering, then something less hard-line is the way to go. I know its not that simple though; every parent wants to do both, and more. I'm sure lots pull it off very well, too.

Maybe I wrote a check I couldn't cash when I said I'd share some of my experiences. I'm not sure how much I really want to clean out my closet publicly. but I will say that I grew up with one parent, and looking back on it the best I can, he really wasn't all that interested in being a parent. Its not that he didn't care, he just didn't know how to provide, nor did he have the drive to succeed personally, and he didn't have the patience to listen. Until just the last few weeks I have not made a habit to think about him, or things specific to growing up with him, but one thing I realized when reading Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother is that an intense love and responsibility is behind her method of parenting, just as it is with hundreds of millions of southeast and east Asian parents as well. Not everybody can say the same of their parents, and except for extreme examples, I believe that good intentions based on probable results is better than a lack of care or motivation to parent at all, considering both probably will cause lasting scars.

I said it once and I"ll say it again- I wonder if anyone out there doesn't bear some kind of scar from their experiences in childhood. I also wonder if the same is not true of parenting.
Posted: Saturday, January 22, 2011 10:17:48 AM

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Location: Newcastle, United Kingdom
My mother always had very high standards for me. I got good grades, but by the time I was 16 or 17, I was just burnt out. I spent all my time trying to please my mother. Not only academically. She made me get braces so I would look less like my father. She had high standards for the way I looked. I have always been over weight and my mother was putting me on diets from the age of nine, maybe even younger. I could never live up to her expectations. If I became interested in anything she would push me so hard to achieve that I just couldn't do that any more.

I used to love to paint. My mother never paid any attention to it. Then, a piece of mine was accepted into a gallery. I told my mum thinking she would be proud of me. She was, but then she pushed me to paint more. She allocated time for me to paint, and I was forced do it. It got to the point where it just wasn't enjoyable, I could no longer use it as an escape or to express myself. Then one day I just stopped painting. My mother got angry at me for doing something else, and she burned/ threw out almost all of my sketch books and paintings.

I was so rebellious because of the rules and standards my mother had for me. At a young age it was doing things like sneaking food, and as I got older I was pretty wild. I used a lot of drugs and slept around a lot. Partly, because it was my way to deal with things, but also because I knew my mum would hate it.

I still find myself trying to live up to those standards, and I can't. My mother is disappointed in who I am, but I think I have been able to do some pretty cool things even if I haven't gone about them in the most traditional way.

I worry about my brother too. He is very dyslexic, so my parents have lowered there standards for him to the point where he feels he can't achieve anything because they don't expect him too.

There needs to be middle ground. Parents should try to teach their child to be the best they can be, but should also embrace who they are as a person. Everyone is different.

I said it once and I"ll say it again- I wonder if anyone out there doesn't bear some kind of scar from their experiences in childhood. I also wonder if the same is not true of parenting.

I have stopped resenting and hating my mother for things she has done. I know she was just trying to make me into the best person I could be. It was because she loved me, and it's not like she had done this before. I was also not an easy child and I feel bad for everything I put her through, and still am putting her through

Posted: Saturday, January 22, 2011 8:43:28 PM

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LadyX wrote:
I don't think any kid comes out of childhood without some kind of scarring, right? Were you raised by lax parents? Were you raised by hard-asses? What about those of you that are parents, where do you stand on this?

Brilliant quote!!!!!!

I could go in detail about how my parents raised me- correction... my mother. My father I think was afraid of children (and they had four girls all about two years apart), and that fear of children, and a fear of women turned into anger and at times emotional and physical abuse.

My mother was not perfect. Now we are older; rather I am older, I am not certain if she speaks to my other sisters in quite the same way, we do not have that sort of relationship, and if she doesn't speak to them the same way she does to me, it is none of their business anyways. She speaks to me of all the mistakes she made as a mother while we were growing up. She speaks about how she wished she stopped my sisters from mocking me when I tried to express and opinion or a feeling. She wished she saw when I was younger that I had a talent for writing and was able to encourage me to write more.

She also wishes she didn't let me bury my head (rather my heart, feelings emotions etc...) in the sand and ignore them completely as it was safer in the long run for me to avoid complications with my sisters who would mock me for having them and trying to express them. And still is. It is how I grew up and how I cope. Keep my feelings squished in a box, don't acknowledge them, pretend they are not there; ignore them.

My childhood, barring the above, was amazing. I was pushed to do many things I hated doing, I was pushed to fit into this little cookie cutter of a mold for the longest time. And for the longest time I did. I was the third child of four, the black sheep of the family (literally, I am the dark looking child compared to my blonder and fairer sisters), and the one who always enjoyed being on my own as I never "fit" in. And in a lot of ways... this made me stronger and better than I could have imagined, when I finally started to stand up and say no. The one thing my family has a unique trait for is laughter. We laugh at the drop of a hat. We laugh when we talk about our physical pain. My sister got told to stop stop making my sister cry with laughter when she was in the delivery room. We laugh at funerals. Hell, look at our family portraits from the past few years? And you will see red shiny faces, tear streaked make-up. Because we started laughing at each other, or pinching each other trying to be serious.

My eldest sister is so naive; and looks for approval in her actions from all around her, and is the sheep/follower of the family. She always looked for a person to tell her what to do. And now that she is a mother of two, she has become a control freak, and one who has lost touch with reality and the world about her. As her world has changed to one of being a stay at home mother. Her priorities have shifted, but have left her in a lot of denial that people and relationships and everything has changed just as she has.

My second sister, she is as driven as they come. With my fathers selfishness of what he makes is his, and what my mother made (financially- which never was much) was for the house, for clothing for me and my sisters and groceries. She has gone to the extreme. And is so career driven it scars my family. She is damned independent, brilliant, and hilarious.

My little sister, she has really grown up in the past few years. She once was all about family, more so than she would have liked to admit. She depended on them to guide her through her decisions. Of late, she has moved to a place where she has grown into a very confident young woman. And I have never been more happy for her. But she misses the closeness that she once had with them. It is strange, she would talk to my sisters and my mother about almost everything, but the only thing she would come to me to talk to me about was sex.

Second and youngest sister, like me, have the uncanny ability to see the humour in pretty much everything we see. But unlike them; who get louder and louder, I am in fact the quiet daughter. I sit back and observe what is not being said.

(insert stunned silence here at you all going... WHAT?? Woman? the quiet one??? I think not!!!)

My life has not been the perfect life I wanted for myself, but it is the one I had. and even though my mother has regrets about how she raised us, and lots of regrets on how she raised me. But that being said, all the things I have gone through, my decisions I have had to make through work that have affected countless people's lives, stupid drunk/stupid high drivers killing two men I've loved deeply, the moving to a different country, the adaption of life changing events, further abuse by superior officers, rape, and the countless other things I have lived through... I might want to bitch and complain, and talk about how I wish my parents and my sisters did not stunt my emotional growth and the end result being me deciding that burying my heart in a lead box deep, deep within- was a good idea.

I want to say that I wish that one part of me could be different. But you know? If this were not the case, I do not think I would have been able to handle what life has tossed my way.

These emotional scars that we all carry with us, they add to our insecurities of what makes us who we are. Be they an Asian Mother/family, where that is what they know. And how they were raised.

My father was a spoiled child when he was growing up, his sister, fifteen years older than him, he was the much sought after son. He got everything handed to him, he never worked for anything. He had five fucking bitches in his house, so why the fuck is the house not clean? Or his super not on the table? When I turned thirteen (maybe twelve), I had a very sharp and biting tongue. One sentence was all it took to get my point across and I only had to ever say it once. "Did you break your fucking hands or something today?" he expected his women (ok girls too) to treat him like the king of the house, just as his mother treated him and his father. That is what HE knew about parenting, so that was the way he is as a father.

I often wonder if it is possible to ever speak to him about this in a way that wouldn't sound like I am judging him. For it is more my curiosity at how he thinks of himself as a parent, and how he sees himself. But I do not know if I will ever have the ability not to judge him. I stopped looking for my parents approval over me as a person long ago.

Now if I ever have children, there is one definite way I will raise them. My mother taught it to me, and I beleive I have said it often throughout these forums. She says, "I raised four children/kids." She never says she raised four girls. My mothers sisters trashed her on numerous times that girls should not play in trees, or in the mud, or with cows, or in the hay with boys. My mother always said, "kids will be kids". Meanwhile... what the aunts did not know... was that their kids loved coming to stay with us for a week every summer.

It is not only how I want to be as a parent, but also how I am as a teacher.

Now that I have bored you enough.... I shall go away!!!

PS- it really was hard not to talk about Chinese parenting here!!! LOL!!!!

Living life and enjoying life are two different things... just need to figure out how to do both at the same time to live it right!

Woman... GO FLY A KITE!!!!! Take a slideshow walk with me on a walk through the parks of Inner Mongolia, China. Then enjoy the tale of a very traditional day in the life of a white Woman in China.
Posted: Saturday, January 22, 2011 9:38:17 PM

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As for Tiger mom, looking at her lineage and her own successes, it seems to be working for her, and ultimately her kids. However, there are skeletons in everyones closet, and I wonder what her daughters will think later on.

As for me, I grew up in a very authoritarian household. Old school, no parties, no sleep overs, no nothing really. Get good grades, you get to go to Greece for the summer. Getting away from my dad for a couple a months a year was all the inspiration I needed. Not a great parenting model.

As a dad now, I see parenting as when architects build a sound building. Strong enough to stand and hold up against the elements, yet within the framework, there is room for sway and movement. Anything built without such capability will probably crack and fall. Structure is also key, and probably well known practice, but each child needs to be heard, and attention paid to their strengths and weaknesses. Constantly pushing for perfection will not crack all young adults, kind of the old "make or break" attitude, however, if I listen to my child close enough, and pay attention, I should know what buttons to push without leaving too many scars or cracks that will later affect her foundation.

In the end, I just do everything opposite of what my parents did, and when I catch myself behaving like them, I check myself. The one major scar is the lasting imprint on how we as adults do things, and how some of those things are similar to our parents. It's an on-going battle.
Posted: Saturday, January 22, 2011 9:45:51 PM

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I wonder..... many times I read reports, or interviews, media things... and more often than not, they are really one sided. I wonder if this is the case here. And if "Work harder, play harder" really is in effect in these circumstances???

Living life and enjoying life are two different things... just need to figure out how to do both at the same time to live it right!

Woman... GO FLY A KITE!!!!! Take a slideshow walk with me on a walk through the parks of Inner Mongolia, China. Then enjoy the tale of a very traditional day in the life of a white Woman in China.
Posted: Friday, February 4, 2011 7:01:36 AM

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just be a good parent, i guess..
i've come as an output of the not so very good parenting method.. no, i'm not wild, no, i'm not a punk, no, i dun use drug, no, i'm not a criminal or so whatever. but i grew with lack of confidence, and short feeling like being rejected and idk what's else.. i still learn how to fix myself, and try me best to stop thinking about it.

i wish i can be a good parents later.. i might adopting many parenting method that i think work best, and mix it to find what's the very best to raise the children. and i'm chinese actually, born in the tiger year. so i guess i'm quite know what u mean with the traditional parenting method, fortunately i live in a country that's more open. i dun really get any curvue after 10th grade, as long as i know what im doing. well, i dun do anything bad anyway.. but, yeah.. i din feel really happy that time..

lol.. well, i'm silly.. if i ended to sound very pathetic, i'm sorry.. i'm just saying, please dun get hard to ur children, but trust them.. there's an old saying, your children have their own way, their own blessing.. xD
Posted: Friday, February 4, 2011 1:48:24 PM

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Give them boundaries, security, praise, love and trust - they will do the rest !
Posted: Friday, February 4, 2011 2:43:51 PM

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Parenting has become a lost art. We once lived in a society were the family as a whole was valued equally. Now we live in a society where our children are valued above all others. Each parent's child can do no wrong and should be treated above all others by everyone... other adults, teachers, priniciples, clergy, coaches. Consequently our children are growing up with HUGE entitlement issues and believe that world does revolve around them. Parents have lost the ability to say no. Try it.. when you see a kid around you and they ask for something.. tell them no. It is an alien term to them. I'm far from a perfect parent, but sometimes it is a must to say no.

Too many parents mistake punishment and discipline as the same thing. How many times as a kid were you told to do something "because I said so"? That is sound logic. I want my kids to do what I say because I said to do it! If my kid won't listen to me as a 5yr old when I tell him to not hit his sister or to pick up his toys, then he won't listen when he's 16 and I tell him to not drink and drive. As he gets older then we may get into a discussion about things that he may want to change. But he shouldn't feel entitled to make his own rules. I hated that phrase as a kid.. "because I said so".. fuck you mom/dad. But you know what, mom/dad was right!

I dont' hit my kids, not my thing. I got whipped with the belt a few times as a kid. Not abused and it was a rare thing to happen. Looking back, when I got the belt I deserved it. When I got in trouble at school, it was my fault. Today when a kid breaks the rules there are no consequences. And the parent is going to school and demand to know why their child is being picked on. Could it be that your child is a little brat becuase he has no boundaries? Boundaries without consequences are just suggestions.

Shit..I'm rambling, what was the question?

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Posted: Saturday, February 5, 2011 7:45:05 AM

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lafayettemister wrote:
Looking back, when I got the belt I deserved it. When I got in trouble at school, it was my fault. Today when a kid breaks the rules there are no consequences.

THAT right there is the lost art of parenting in my opinion.

Taking responsibility for ones actions. The ability to admit one is wrong.

I teach over a thousand kids a week (when not on holidays that is), and I see it daily. When I was a student? I remember a few students who would say, "It is my fault, I should not have done that".

Good point Lafayette!!!!

Living life and enjoying life are two different things... just need to figure out how to do both at the same time to live it right!

Woman... GO FLY A KITE!!!!! Take a slideshow walk with me on a walk through the parks of Inner Mongolia, China. Then enjoy the tale of a very traditional day in the life of a white Woman in China.
Posted: Saturday, February 5, 2011 3:10:39 PM

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A bit absolutist? A bit precious?

Is there a book offering in the offing?
Posted: Sunday, February 6, 2011 10:53:44 AM

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I hope that the belt is now substituted with some straight talk with the child as to what consequences will come other than violence. The usual testing of authority figures, from my own experience, and from what I've heard (not in this thread, other parents) is when the message contradicts a parents own actions.

You want the child to know consequences, then tell them, and show them. This can be done, as in all situations, without violence.

Posted: Monday, February 7, 2011 12:54:14 AM

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pcplod wrote:
A bit absolutist? A bit precious?

Is there a book offering in the offing?

Yes in case you missed it?


She's pretty absolute from what I can tell, yeah. I don't know about precious. I think you have to be sweeter in general than her to be called precious.
Posted: Monday, February 7, 2011 9:08:17 AM

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As parents we all make mistakes. There are a few of my parent’s mistakes that stick out that I have tried not to make with my daughter. Only she is in charge of who she becomes. It is my job to help her make good decisions along the way. And thus become the truly beautiful person that I know she is. I try very hard to not have preconceived notions of whom or what that will be. To love, guide, and support her along the way is my one true mission.
Sounds good on paper right?
Posted: Monday, February 7, 2011 6:29:58 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 863,241
No, that pretty much sums it up. Paper or reality.
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