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nicola
Posted: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 12:00:54 AM

Rank: Matriarch
Moderator

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Posts: 26,358
Location: United Kingdom
OrionTat wrote:
I understand Incest drives in the crowds and funds the site.


Wrong. The phrases related to "incest" bring in less than 10% of the traffic to our site.

I don't see incest as "cool" either.
Batman
Posted: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 12:11:23 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/9/2008
Posts: 1,909
I think I've walk this road before.
And I will NOT say anymore.



Bat
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 12:13:14 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 675,782
All of us have our own preferences. We like what we like and nobody can tell us differently. Lush simply provides many different types of stories and she never once said she approves of every single category.
It's like being a chef and being expected to enjoy every item on the menu. The chef makes the food for the public's consumption; not necessarily hers.
She's provided a place for people to enjoy all kinds of ADULT writing, and, at the same time, enforces the rules as she sees fit. It's her site and if somebody doesn't agree with her philosophy, they're invited to start up their own.
Guest
Posted: Monday, January 05, 2009 8:43:58 AM

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Good point Rocco. I hate kidneys but I sure can cook the piss outta them.
Guest
Posted: Friday, April 24, 2009 4:04:25 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
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The debate here really seems to be driving at two separate questions:

1) Should the site allow underage/rape/whatever-else-is-not-allowed stories to be posted, and

2) Is it OK to write/fantasize about those things.

The answers are getting tangled up so far. In asnwer to 1, I believe it is primarily a question of avoiding legal issues. Stories about sex with six-year-olds may have a tendency to attract an audience which may try and sneak the odd kiddie-porn link or image in there. Not cool.

The answer to 2 is far more difficult. I believe that it is OK to fantasize about whatever the hell it is that turns you on. You like thinking about raping baby goats? Have at her... in your imagination. In reality, for God's sake - leave the kids alone! I see no harm in stories and fantasy. I wish that anything could be posted here, because I believe very strongly in the freedom of expression. I also kow there are other sites I can go to if I want to read that stuff. Some of them have been around for a very long time and have a very large archive of baby goat abuse. Enjoy if you want.

What bothers me the most is some of the statements that have been made in this thread about people needing help because of whatever they might be into. Judging people based on their sexual preferences is never good, whether those preferences are homosexuality or hog-tying an unwilling baby goat. As long as the fantasizer does not act in such a way as to harm someone, then they do not deserve to be persecuted for their feelings.

That's it that's all, cause I just realised that this thread is 4 months old and this post is way longer than I had intended it to be :)
Guest
Posted: Friday, April 24, 2009 4:25:46 PM

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Very good points made Durrasch and welcome to the forums.
Ghost
Posted: Friday, April 24, 2009 4:39:35 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 12/29/2008
Posts: 128
I'm not really "into" incest stories, but I'll read one if it is well written. I separate the fantasy from reality, those news stories make me ill. The news is real the story is fiction.
Zafia
Posted: Friday, April 24, 2009 4:47:32 PM

Rank: Lush Legend

Joined: 4/13/2008
Posts: 5,209
Location: Shoe Heaven
Welcome Durrasch....hello2

I will save my comments on this subject.....

happy1

"Love all, trust a few, and do wrong to none."





Guest
Posted: Friday, April 24, 2009 4:53:45 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 675,782
Ghost wrote:
I'm not really "into" incest stories, but I'll read one if it is well written. I separate the fantasy from reality, those news stories make me ill. The news is real the story is fiction.


Spot on. Fantasy =/= Reality.

That Austrian dude = not cool.
Good incest story = pretty cool.

I have read a few pretty good incest stories. I have no desire to lock my daughter in the cellar.


And thanks for the welcomes :) I think I like it here.
Guest
Posted: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:07:18 PM

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Posts: 675,782
Good! Stick around BigD.
Monocle
Posted: Friday, April 24, 2009 7:35:24 PM

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Joined: 2/19/2007
Posts: 301
Incest is usually a squick for me - I've only found a bare handful of stories I've cared for. On the other hand, a great deal of what I write is inappropriate for Lush in other ways mentioned in this thread, and therefore not posted to the site. In my own defense and respectfully, writing stories on the darker side isn't necessarily a sign of an unstable individual (a warped mind, maybe) - fantasies are exactly that. I have moral reprehension for many of the scenarios I write if they would ever occur in the real world. I believe rape, for example, should qualify for capital punishment. But that doesn't mean that those specters don't stalk the imagination and turn some people on as warped extremes of control fantasies. In the case that started this thread, the true horror was not so much the incest (though one can make the case that any parent-child incest - even if the child is no longer a minor - is abusive because of the power dynamic involved), but the systematic abuse within that incestuous relationship.
Guest
Posted: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:11:04 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 675,782
Durrasch,

I believe in freedom of expression, too. But along with that comes responsibility and when it involves a private site, respect. Yes, there are sites that post that stuff and people can go THERE to read them. This site isn't public domain or done by a government; no one has a "right" to post whatever the hell they want on here. The rules were made the way they are and we've found a lot of people agree with them. If I didn't, I wouldn't be here.
At the same time, this site does give a lot of freedom for writers; more than many others. Look at all those categories. When people abuse that freedom and break the rules in here, it's an act of disrespect towards the owner and the members that agreed to our terms.
Guest
Posted: Friday, April 24, 2009 11:04:13 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 675,782
still relatively new arounf here but i'll offer my observations. it seems that quite a few stories are about incest. regardless of how many people come in through the incest door it seems to be a topic that keeps them here. perhaps because it is accepted in this erotic story site people stay to indulge in what may not be allowed on other sites. for both reading and writing.
but that just imho.

g
Guest
Posted: Saturday, April 25, 2009 8:36:58 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 675,782
I've refrained from offering my two cents worth... mostly because I don't think it's that different from most people, and it's MY opinion in which case I don't feel justified in foisting it off onto others. I do enjoy reading what other people have to say on any variety of subjects, which is the main reason why I visit the forums as often as I do...

With regard to stories of this nature, not my thing, but I will NOT judge someone else for enjoying their own fantasies. This particular problematic situation has come up in my own personal life any number of times. Most recently because my bf enjoys reading about sexual subjects which most would find... odd to say the least but which turn him on. I have written some stories for him for his enjoyment (and my benefit hee hee) but they are not anything which I would willing read.

And that's my two cents... change please?

Ling
Guest
Posted: Saturday, April 25, 2009 4:36:40 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 675,782
roccotool wrote:
Durrasch,

I believe in freedom of expression, too. But along with that comes responsibility and when it involves a private site, respect. Yes, there are sites that post that stuff and people can go THERE to read them. This site isn't public domain or done by a government; no one has a "right" to post whatever the hell they want on here. The rules were made the way they are and we've found a lot of people agree with them. If I didn't, I wouldn't be here.
At the same time, this site does give a lot of freedom for writers; more than many others. Look at all those categories. When people abuse that freedom and break the rules in here, it's an act of disrespect towards the owner and the members that agreed to our terms.


I don't disagree, which would be why I said "I wish" that some other stuff was permitted here, not that it should be permitted or that it's wrong to forbid it.
HiveMaster
Posted: Thursday, April 30, 2009 5:11:12 PM

Rank: Rookie Scribe

Joined: 4/19/2009
Posts: 2
Location: Wrexham
Its a difficult point and one that is hotly contested

First of all is the legal argument. I wrote a story that depicted an obvious age play scenario. A 35year woman old acting as a 16 year old schoolgirl. The site I tried to post it too banned me as I was posting stories that were depicting under age sex. When I complained I was told that it is the perceived age that is important, not actual age. My problem is that here in the UK 16 is legal, where as in the US, in some states it is 18.

Over and above the legal argument however is the moral one. Any of us can write a story depicting any number of abhorrent issues, death scat and Paedophillia amongst others, but it is our conscience that does not allow us to post them or allow others to see them. The fact that there are people out there who will trawl sites looking for material such as that is immaterial, I for one write for myself and am gratified if others enjoy it and therefore I am not going to write stuff I don't like.

Rape and incest are good borderline, edgy subjects and stories of incest have been around for many years. I mean look at John Milton's Paradise Lost, where Satan commits incest with his daughter and their child, Death, rapes his mother. High Literature or obscene porn?

In all things let your moral compass be your guide


Oh and by the way, this is my first post, so Hello to all

Hive
Guest
Posted: Thursday, April 30, 2009 7:30:00 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 675,782
Hello, Hive, and welcome. Yes, the compass can guide writers here, but they'd better follow the rules, of course. thumbright
Guest
Posted: Friday, May 01, 2009 10:03:12 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 675,782
Hi HM and welcome!
castlequeen
Posted: Friday, May 01, 2009 11:37:23 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 4/24/2009
Posts: 593
OrionTat wrote:
I love how everyone is portraying the good side of incest and forgetting that most times it is a powerplay that is basically rape in another form. The same would be for a priest abusing his flock, or a teacher with one of their students.

Everything has some way of being portrayed from a good point of view, but somethings are still not allowed because of it. I understand Incest drives in the crowds and funds the site. I cannot understand however how incest is cool and rape, violence, and torture are too much. Just seems like selective persecution to me.

Just read what you wrote, 'most times'. It isn't always that way, and as long as we're not endorsing torture, rape or violence, a fantasy is just that. It's not real. I don't endorse violence or rape, even in fantasy form, but portraying two sisters who get involved with each other as they explore the rest of their sexuality does not harm anyone. A young woman who fantasizes about Daddy does not hurt anyone. A brother and sister who learn from each other is not wrong.

The last one is because I know it isn't wrong, having experienced it myself. (No, he wasn't a football player with eleven inches and I'm not a cheerleader with 38DD's!laughing9 ) My brother and I were two kids who both lacked in self esteem because we were tall and skinny. We didn't have a lot of friends, but we had each other. One day a friendly wrestling match turned into some shy, tentative kisses, and thus we began our "affair" as we called it. It wasn't exactly the stuff of epic fantasy as we never got further than exploring each other with our fingers. No oral, no wild fucking, just a lot of kissing and holding each other close. Was it wrong? I suppose if you subscribe to some religious or moral viewpoints, yes, it was. Did it harm either of us in any way? Not even close.

We both got much needed human contact from a member of the opposite sex, which helped us to become more comfortable with the opposite sex. We both learned the value of simply being there for someone, we both learned how to open your heart to your partner as well. In between the kisses, we told each other everything, and I do mean everything. For a sixteen year old boy, he got a thorough lesson in female anatomy and just what we went through every month. At seventeen, I knew all about premature ejaculation and performance anxiety. Mostly, we both got a self esteem boost when we were at a critical time in our development. Sure, he was my brother, but the thought that someone found me sexually attractive sure made me feel special, even if I was tall, skinny and flat chested. The thought that I found his fumbling fingers and lips to be exciting made him feel better about himself as well.
After a year or so, I got asked out, and he had the guts to ask out a girl as well, and we both began dating. It seems that all of the men I've dated (and the one I married) were impressed with the fact that I was a pretty understanding partner. He had similar experiences.
Yes, we were each other's first love, but there was nothing wrong there, and no one can tell me different.

"A black cat crossing your path signifies that the animal is going somewhere." - Groucho Marx
Guest
Posted: Friday, May 01, 2009 11:58:06 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 675,782
Quote:
as long as we're not endorsing torture, rape or violence, a fantasy is just that. It's not real. I don't endorse violence or rape, even in fantasy form, but portraying two sisters who get involved with each other as they explore the rest of their sexuality does not harm anyone. A young woman who fantasizes about Daddy does not hurt anyone.


If the criterion for judgment is whether anyone gets hurt, why is fanasising about violence "wrong"? Fantasy hurts nobody. I in no way defend the act of raping someone, but none of the fantasies I have ever had about locking a hot chick in the closet have ever hurt anyone. The things I dreamed about doing to my daughter's kindergarten teacher never did anyone any harm. Fantasy is a perfectly viable outlet for desires we may have upon which we cannot morally act.
castlequeen
Posted: Friday, May 01, 2009 2:40:18 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 4/24/2009
Posts: 593
Durrasch wrote:
Quote:
as long as we're not endorsing torture, rape or violence, a fantasy is just that. It's not real. I don't endorse violence or rape, even in fantasy form, but portraying two sisters who get involved with each other as they explore the rest of their sexuality does not harm anyone. A young woman who fantasizes about Daddy does not hurt anyone.


If the criterion for judgment is whether anyone gets hurt, why is fanasising about violence "wrong"? Fantasy hurts nobody. I in no way defend the act of raping someone, but none of the fantasies I have ever had about locking a hot chick in the closet have ever hurt anyone. The things I dreamed about doing to my daughter's kindergarten teacher never did anyone any harm. Fantasy is a perfectly viable outlet for desires we may have upon which we cannot morally act.


It's the emotions and desires that bring about those fantasies. To desire my husband to dress up as a fireman is simply a desire for a change, a pleasant variation on our sex life. There's no hatred or rage in it, mostly amusement. To even fantasize about raping your child's teacher? Where is that desire coming from? What emotions trigger that? Why does that appeal to you?
I'm a clinical psychologist and I've seen many cases where the line gets crossed, and the consequences vary from simple embarrassment to horrifying acts. The difference is in the degree and intensity of the fantasy.
I've crossed the line several times, and the worst thing that happened is my mother in law wanting to know why we had a fireman outfit in the hall closet. An outfit we no longer use, by the way because it was just a passing thing.
A violent fantasy though, tends to live on longer, and can become an obsession. If you're at the bar and you've already had too much to drink and your child's teacher comes in? How far away are you from not just crossing the line, but shattering it? I'm not saying you would or judging you in any way, but that possibility is there. Rage and anger can come to the surface quickly, especially if someone is intoxicated.

Of course, it may simply be a matter of language. Your fantasy might be no more than her saying no, but quickly changing her tune because she's always had the hots for you, but if true violence is involved in the fantasy? Be very careful. The human mind is incredibly complex and is capable of rationalizing things that we would normally never consider when we're in the grip of strong emotions.

There's also tons of research showing that many violent offenders engaged in a great deal of fantasy play before going too far. It's not worth it to fantasize about it, and I sure don't want to write it or read it. It's just not needed.

"A black cat crossing your path signifies that the animal is going somewhere." - Groucho Marx
Guest
Posted: Friday, May 01, 2009 3:23:09 PM

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So now people are going to be persecuted on fantasy and thought? Nope not in my world. The "soft sciences" need to stop borrowing trouble.
What kind of society have we become to judge people on what they think. A little Orwellian aren't we? Wait, I think I hear Hitler sneaking aroung somewhere.
Guest
Posted: Friday, May 01, 2009 3:27:19 PM

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chefkathleen wrote:
So now people are going to be persecuted on fantasy and thought? Nope not in my world. The "soft sciences" need to stop borrowing trouble.
What kind of society have we become to judge people on what they think. A little Orwellian aren't we? Wait, I think I hear Hitler sneaking aroung somewhere.



Exactly nothing wrong with fantasy Chef said it perfectly.
DBarclay
Posted: Friday, May 01, 2009 3:50:43 PM

Rank: Mr Nobody

Joined: 2/28/2008
Posts: 948
Location: Florida, United States
Phew !!! this is too heavy for a friday night before dinner...

I will go out back and shag the dog ...
Guest
Posted: Friday, May 01, 2009 5:30:28 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 675,782
Quote:
There's also tons of research showing that many violent offenders engaged in a great deal of fantasy play before going too far. It's not worth it to fantasize about it, and I sure don't want to write it or read it. It's just not needed


And almost NO research on the people who have those fantasies but never act upon them. Selection bias, if ever there was one. And lots of stuff is not needed. As far as sex is concerned, the only thing really needed is the occasional boring lay to make a couple of kids. Sex - and especially fantasy sex - has nothing to do with what is needed and everything to do with what is enjoyable.

As to why it appeals to me to have thought about raping my kid's kindergarten teacher, why shouldn't it appeal to me? From the time we are kids, we daydream about getting into the cookie jar. Everyone wants what they can't have, and wants to do things they know they can't. Human nature is largely built around the desire for the forbidden. It's one of our central myths... Garden of Eden, and all that jazz. And if I'm at the bar and wasted and she comes in, I'll probably hit on her, but that doesn't mean in any way that I intend to do her any harm. And it wasn't just a matter of language; I really fantasised about doing not nice things to her. I don't think that makes me a bad person, and I don't think it in any way indicates a propensity on my part to real violence. And in spite of your protestations to the contary, I am left with the distinct impression that I have indeed been judged for a thoughtcrime.
Monocle
Posted: Friday, May 01, 2009 9:20:31 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/19/2007
Posts: 301
Hang on. I can understand castlequeen's POV here. And I disagree with it up to a point - but only because I think she's missing part of the picture.

Rape and other non-consent fantasies are not always, and I would argue not often about violence or hate. They are mostly about control - and/or being controlled, depending on who is the fantasizer. It can be looked on as an extreme form of D/s.

Using myself as an example, I've written many nc stories of various kinds, but harbor no misogyny in me. I'd never for a second would consider acting in that manner, and personally believe and posted elsewhere that rape could easily be considered a capital crime. But that doesn't mean the fantasy is a damning character flaw - or a predictor of behavior.

On the other hand those that have and write about these fantasy subjects need to know that castlequeen's perceptions are neither unique, nor entirely unfounded.
Monocle
Posted: Friday, May 01, 2009 9:20:33 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/19/2007
Posts: 301
Sorry - double post.
castlequeen
Posted: Friday, May 01, 2009 11:07:11 PM

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Joined: 4/24/2009
Posts: 593
Terribly sorry, but I do not mean for anyone to feel I'm judging them or their actions (unless they're breaking the law somehow). That isn't my job, or my lookout, I'm simply stating what works and doesn't work for me.
Durrasch, I apologize if I came off that way. That's not my intent, and I don't see you as a potential offender, I'm just playing devil's advocate and considering the extremes that can and have happened in this world. I know there's a large group of people who will never go beyond the thoughts, and you're right, it's unfair to only mention those who DO cross the line. Another apology for that.

I don't think that all n/c and rape fantasies are about hate and anger, but a frighteningly large percentage of the actual crimes are. That is what I get mad about, because in my work, I've had to help pick up the pieces after some of those crimes, and yes, I've seen firsthand how some of the perps did indeed have fantasies that got out of hand.

Can I restate my position as this:
Fantasies that are only fantasies are ok if you're ok with them, but if anyone ever considers crossing the line on the violent ones, please get help.
We all have things we're ok with, and we all have things that we're not ok with, as long as we're not judging each other, it's cool.
Is that better?


"A black cat crossing your path signifies that the animal is going somewhere." - Groucho Marx
Guest
Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2009 3:19:21 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
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castlequeen wrote:

Durrasch, I apologize if I came off that way. That's not my intent


CQ - I know that's not the way you intended it... and I am sorry for sounding so pissy. I wasn't pissy at you, but at the tendency in the social sciences to select a sample which is not representative, and then to draw from that conclusions about the larger group. It's a huge issue with me; it relates very closely to my work and my studies at school :)

And undoubtedly, for some people, the fantasies do get out of hand; those people ought to be severely punished. The problem is that too often (and you have cleared this up for yourself in the restatement of your position) people will judge anyone with a rape or incest or pedophelia fantasy as a guaranteed eventual transgressor. This is, in my opinion, tantamount to suggesting that everyone who drives a sports car will eventually wrap it around a tree at 130mph, because some people who drive sports cars do this.

In almost everything we do, there is a line which should not be crossed, and inevitably some percentage will cross it. This in no way implies that we cannot do that thing without crossing the line.

castlequeen wrote:
Can I restate my position as this:
Fantasies that are only fantasies are ok if you're ok with them, but if anyone ever considers crossing the line on the violent ones, please get help.
We all have things we're ok with, and we all have things that we're not ok with, as long as we're not judging each other, it's cool.
Is that better?


I agree 100% :) Anyone who considers crossing the line into actual violence does need to get help, before they hurt someone. I cannot argue with that at all. I have no problem with any fantasy, whatever it may be, so long as the fantasiser is clear about the delineation between fantasy and reality, and never loses track of that line.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2009 3:28:31 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 675,782
Monocle wrote:
Hang on. I can understand castlequeen's POV here. And I disagree with it up to a point - but only because I think she's missing part of the picture.

Rape and other non-consent fantasies are not always, and I would argue not often about violence or hate. They are mostly about control - and/or being controlled, depending on who is the fantasizer. It can be looked on as an extreme form of D/s.


I'm forced to think of Adam Carolla's take on this: "Rape is not a sexual crime; it's a violent crime... where you come at the end." While he says it sarcastically, there is something to it.

I agree with you to a large extent, Monocle. It's like pulling the wings off of flies, or burning ants with a magnifying glass. It's not because you enjoy hurting the ants, it's because that is the only way you can find to express any control in your life, and frequently you fantasise that the ants are your parents, your teachers, your older siblings - whomever it is that makes you feel helpless.

Admittedly, most of the prominent serial killers did this sort of thing. But that does not mean that all the little boys with magnifying glasses grow up to become serial killers.
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