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Norway - 91 killed by a madman Options · View
nicola
Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2011 4:36:28 PM

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That's the official story: http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/-/world/9899792/at-least-87-killed-in-norway-twin-attacks-horror/

It's a black armband day, that's for sure.
Ruthie
Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2011 4:39:35 PM

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This is terrible. Why do things like this happen? Do people just not know how precious life is?
Guest
Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2011 5:21:36 PM

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I just hate the fact the gunman opened up on kids stuck on a island. In some cases he fired twice to make sure they were dead. The worse thing is these kids thought he was a policeman sent to protect them because of the attack in the city. They had no one to protect them there either. So senseless...
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2011 8:56:34 PM

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http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/massacre-in-norway-hatred-s-very-last-stop-1.374914

This is a good news article on the man behind the massacre.

And... I think this would be a great topic for the Think Tank. It could use a little more 'international news' discussion.

I'm actually kind of surprised that so few people are on this thread today considering it's the worst shooting spree massacre in history. Plus it involves terrorism, conspiracy theories, the muslim connection, multiculturalism, and you can even bring in those gun law arguments (ie. 'if only someone was packing, none of this would have ever happened!' I am officially paging Mr Nudiepants to this thread!)

Or maybe everyone is too busy mourning Amy Winehouse today. geek




Guest
Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2011 9:04:01 PM

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I've moved it..you're right..this should be here.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2011 9:15:10 PM

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I've been busy - I only know the Readers' Digest version of the story. From what I heard, he was dressed like a cop? Just like I've always said - evil people will find a way to do evil things. And you can't necessarily trust every cop you see.

When I know more, I'll actually have an informed opinion. Until then, I just feel sad for the families of all the victims.
Ruthie
Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2011 10:46:09 PM

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"Breivik hated "cultural marxists," wanted a "crusade" against the spread of Islam and liked guns and weightlifting, web postings, acquaintances and officials said."

The kids at the camp were members of the youth wing of the Labour Party, a liberal political party. Brejvik is a far right thug. He doesn't believe in other people's right to their own political beliefs, believes that his way is the only way, and that anyone who doesn't think like him is the enemy. Much of the right wing in this country has always believed the same things Brejvik believes, and are just as prone to violence as he is. The far right is a big big danger to democracy, and the right moves further to the right every day. What used to be the center is now considered the left.

It has become fashionable for some of the Republican politicians in this country the to do a little Muslim bashing to pander to the far right wing of their party. The rhetoric that they use is usually coded, but some people, like Cain, are being a lot more upfront. Liberal is already used by these people as a dirty word. There is a sense that the world is made up of them and the other. Life is getting scarier.
WellMadeMale
Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2011 10:51:42 PM

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This deserves a bit more time to digest what the hell happened, before commenting. I'm still a bit stunned.

Ms Winehouse...She didn't give a shit about living, that's obvious. What a waste of talent, but...then again she didn't care, nor do I.

Obscenity is the last refuge of an inarticulate motherfucker.
DirtyMartini
Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2011 11:19:45 PM

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Dancing_Doll wrote:


I'm actually kind of surprised that so few people are on this thread today considering it's the worst shooting spree massacre in history.


I think like Jeff said, this one needs a little time to digest...it's a bit more of a stunner than the usual killing spree on certain levels...

Not sure I'll ever really digest this one...


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nicola
Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2011 11:55:35 PM

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Loislane wrote:
I've moved it..you're right..this should be here.


I had it in the think tank originally, and moved it to the lounge. I didn't think it was really a "tank topic", which are normally full of debate.

This is one sorry turn of events, what a horrific waste of lives.
Swollen
Posted: Sunday, July 24, 2011 12:46:23 AM

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It's impossible to imagine losing a loved one in such totally horrific circumstances. A lot of hearts and minds will be with the Norwegian people for a long time. Including mine, God bless them.
curvygalore
Posted: Sunday, July 24, 2011 5:36:34 AM

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I agree with Dirty Martini and Jeff, that its just such unthinkable act that we need more time to digest the shock of it, before we can consider the background of such an atrocity. Not really a topic for knee jerk opinions.
easy_rider75
Posted: Sunday, July 24, 2011 10:46:34 AM

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Plain and simple fucking cowards that do shit like this. Not to mention useless scum

“I'm not one of those complicated, mixed-up cats. I'm not looking for the secret to life.... I just go on from day to day, taking what comes.”~Frank Sinatra~
Guest
Posted: Sunday, July 24, 2011 1:35:26 PM

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Is there anywhere in the world where it's legal to quarter someone?
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Sunday, July 24, 2011 1:37:40 PM

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I think the 90 minute response time by the SWAT team was unfortunate, especially considering that news helicopters were up over the island actually filming and taking photos of the gunman during the latter part of the shooting. The police stated that they didn't have a helicopter on standby and it took them 20 minutes to find a boat.

I also read that Norway's maximum sentence for these crimes is 21 years. Their new maximum security prison (Halden Prison) looks pretty posh too. Someone like Breivik should be nicely set up to continue running his ideologies from behind bars during his prison term.

I always find it hard to understand how an educated person (which he appears to be) can translate a hardline stance on immigration and multiculturalism into believing that a response like this is 'necessary' to wipe out the future generation of the Labour Party that he opposes. Then again, I've never really understood the logic behind terrorism against innocent civilians. His anti-muslim stance in particular is ironic considering his chosen method of opposition is to use tactics carried out by the extremists.

It makes me wonder if we are coming to a place in society where terrorism of civilians is becoming the preferred method of protest in order to really make a point.


nicola
Posted: Sunday, July 24, 2011 3:33:59 PM

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Javier's post (since removed, so to his account) is precisely why I had this topic in the lounge originally. It shows a total lack of respect (unsurprising, given the poster's past history).

At the time of posting, nothing was known about this killer, there was no reporting on the web or tv bulletins about possible religious / political beliefs being the cause of his killing rampage.

I posted out of shock and support for the Norwegian people. That's all I'll say on the matter.
curvygalore
Posted: Sunday, July 24, 2011 3:59:32 PM

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nicola wrote:


I posted out of shock and support for the Norwegian people. That's all I'll say on the matter.


Thanks Nicola, I think that really encapsulates how we're all feeling.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Sunday, July 24, 2011 6:05:08 PM

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Dancing_Doll wrote:
I think the 90 minute response time by the SWAT team was unfortunate, especially considering that news helicopters were up over the island actually filming and taking photos of the gunman during the latter part of the shooting. The police stated that they didn't have a helicopter on standby and it took them 20 minutes to find a boat.

I also read that Norway's maximum sentence for these crimes is 21 years. Their new maximum security prison (Halden Prison) looks pretty posh too. Someone like Breivik should be nicely set up to continue running his ideologies from behind bars during his prison term.

I always find it hard to understand how an educated person (which he appears to be) can translate a hardline stance on immigration and multiculturalism into believing that a response like this is 'necessary' to wipe out the future generation of the Labour Party that he opposes. Then again, I've never really understood the logic behind terrorism against innocent civilians. His anti-muslim stance in particular is ironic considering his chosen method of opposition is to use tactics carried out by the extremists.

It makes me wonder if we are coming to a place in society where terrorism of civilians is becoming the preferred method of protest in order to really make a point.


Life experience shows us that there's no correlation at all between intelligence and insanity. In fact, when we're talking about criminals that are capable of such a thing, insanity and intelligence are both prerequisites. Stupid madmen get caught long before plans like this come to fruition. Intelligent, sane criminals tend to use their criminal tendencies for personal gain (and can be quite successful at it - hence the long run of Ponzi scheme organizers that have been coming to light recently). The intelligent, but insane, criminals realize that if they want to make any kind of statement that will be noticed on the world's stage, this is just about the only kind of act that is available to them.

I wish there was some kind of standardized testing that could be administered to a child at different stages in his (or her) life that would catch him early on, but I'd worry about not only the fairness of the tests, but the ability of the really intelligent ones beating the tests while the authorities were lulled into complacency.
Buz
Posted: Monday, July 25, 2011 6:45:05 AM

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I don't think the Norwegians were at all prepared for something like this. What a horrible wake up call for them. Can we ever really explain the madness of some people? Why someone would want to kill those people and destroy so many lives? It is scary as shit for sure because it can happen anywhere. There have always been sick killers. Some have even risen to be the heads of state, actually many have throughout history.

I have a 'carry permit' to carry a concealed pistol for protection. The problem is, is that I rarely actually carry the damn thing. I guess is should start doing that. who knows when I may need to defend myself or other people against some sick bastard. Of course it wouldn't do anything to defend against a bomb and automatic weapons would have a distinct advantage over a pistol. At least I am an excellent shot. I have never thought about what it would be like to shoot another human being but if it is a situation of defending loved ones and innocent people or myself maybe I could do that. I hope I never have to find out.




hartclass
Posted: Monday, July 25, 2011 7:46:26 AM

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For someone who has close family and friends from Norway - I am socked and stunned. I have visited Norway many times and the people there have always been very friendly and welcoming. It is their nature to take people in irrespective of nationality, colour, creed or religion. For such a small country they take more political asylum seekers and refugees than many of their much larger european neighbors. So for this tragic event to take place in such a tranquil place is beyond comprehension. I spoke to my brother, who is a senior teacher there and they have spent days phoning round all their students trying to find out where they where. This is even harder, as school has broken up but sadly they have several kids unaccounted for.

So please say a prayer for this lovely nation - our thoughts are with the family of friends of the bereaved.

lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, July 25, 2011 8:01:47 AM

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This just shows that "crazy" comes in all shape, sizes, colors, creeds, nationalities. To think this guy will only get 21 years in jail sickens me.

My thoughts are with the many families that lost loved ones.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Dudealicious
Posted: Monday, July 25, 2011 9:24:14 AM

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This obviously is the worst kind of terrorist, as the police and security experts have mentioned he had no prior convictions and was never on their radar.

I am very surprised that a police officer didn't just open fire on him when they saw how many people he had massacred citing self defense and that he had the gun pointed on him...Talk about self control.

Now I read that he has pleaded not guitly - WHAT? This is a true testament to his insanity..WOW!

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LadyX
Posted: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 3:48:59 PM

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Dudealicious wrote:
This is a true testament to his insanity..


I think that's probably his exact strategy.
Jacknife
Posted: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 4:32:27 PM

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LadyX wrote:
Dudealicious wrote:
This is a true testament to his insanity..


I think that's probably his exact strategy.


Agreed, while I'm not going to say he isn't insane. he clearly is competent enough to develop a plan where he kills the maximum number of people. He sets of a bomb in the city centre, while he heads away from it.

All the police rush to the bomb scene. he then strikes an isolated Island with lots of totally helpless targets which is difficult to escape from. Use of perfect misdirection does not say man who is clinically insane.

Though I must congratulate the Norwegian people on their strength and dignity during and after this terrible event. I know my country would be going apeshit right now.
righthand48
Posted: Friday, July 29, 2011 10:09:22 PM

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CoopsRuthie wrote:
"Breivik hated "cultural marxists," wanted a "crusade" against the spread of Islam and liked guns and weightlifting, web postings, acquaintances and officials said."

The kids at the camp were members of the youth wing of the Labour Party, a liberal political party. Brejvik is a far right thug. He doesn't believe in other people's right to their own political beliefs, believes that his way is the only way, and that anyone who doesn't think like him is the enemy. Much of the right wing in this country has always believed the same things Brejvik believes, and are just as prone to violence as he is. The far right is a big big danger to democracy, and the right moves further to the right every day. What used to be the center is now considered the left.

It has become fashionable for some of the Republican politicians in this country the to do a little Muslim bashing to pander to the far right wing of their party. The rhetoric that they use is usually coded, but some people, like Cain, are being a lot more upfront. Liberal is already used by these people as a dirty word. There is a sense that the world is made up of them and the other. Life is getting scarier.

Very well informed comment; unlike some that reflect the same 'Christian' fundamentalist ideas as the killer. He may prove to be a loner who had difficulties with relationships and would have found some excuse to massacre. If I might mix politics and sex here, if he was getting his rocks off, might their be scores of young persons alive.

Norway, like my Ireland, enjoys true freedoms by its citizens. Can one 'Christian' nut take our freedoms away to become yet another fascist state of security, afraid of boogiemen abroad while ignoring its home made terrorists.
LadyX
Posted: Sunday, July 31, 2011 10:57:34 PM

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Jacknife wrote:
LadyX wrote:
Dudealicious wrote:
This is a true testament to his insanity..


I think that's probably his exact strategy.


Agreed, while I'm not going to say he isn't insane. he clearly is competent enough to develop a plan where he kills the maximum number of people. He sets of a bomb in the city centre, while he heads away from it.


This is a great point. I was pointed to this article, and found it to be worth posting:

Ordinary People Can Do Terrible Things


These things happen, and we immediately label them as madmen, insane, monsters, etc. But undoubtedly, many murderers know exactly what they are doing, they weigh all their options, and then act in a calculated fashion. They might have no respect for life, or right and wrong, but they are sane, they are responsible for their own actions.

When extreme movements find people willing to kill for their cause, we all have to come to terms with both the movement and the murderer. Just giving a broad brush "insane" label to either, or both, does nothing other than allow us to pretend that only sub-human monsters take or maim lives. This is unfortunately not the case.
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, August 1, 2011 7:20:09 AM

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righthand48 wrote:
CoopsRuthie wrote:
"Breivik hated "cultural marxists," wanted a "crusade" against the spread of Islam and liked guns and weightlifting, web postings, acquaintances and officials said."

The kids at the camp were members of the youth wing of the Labour Party, a liberal political party. Brejvik is a far right thug. He doesn't believe in other people's right to their own political beliefs, believes that his way is the only way, and that anyone who doesn't think like him is the enemy. Much of the right wing in this country has always believed the same things Brejvik believes, and are just as prone to violence as he is. The far right is a big big danger to democracy, and the right moves further to the right every day. What used to be the center is now considered the left.

It has become fashionable for some of the Republican politicians in this country the to do a little Muslim bashing to pander to the far right wing of their party. The rhetoric that they use is usually coded, but some people, like Cain, are being a lot more upfront. Liberal is already used by these people as a dirty word. There is a sense that the world is made up of them and the other. Life is getting scarier.

Very well informed comment; unlike some that reflect the same 'Christian' fundamentalist ideas as the killer. He may prove to be a loner who had difficulties with relationships and would have found some excuse to massacre. If I might mix politics and sex here, if he was getting his rocks off, might their be scores of young persons alive.

Norway, like my Ireland, enjoys true freedoms by its citizens. Can one 'Christian' nut take our freedoms away to become yet another fascist state of security, afraid of boogiemen abroad while ignoring its home made terrorists.



This guy is crazy. Probably lives in his own reality. Let's not make the mistake of lumping his behavior in with any and all Repulicans and/or Christians. Crazy eliminates all the other similarities and tendency. This was the worst shooting imaginable, but had the police gotten there within any sort of reasonable timeframe it wouldn't have been nearly as bad. We all know that 99.99% of conservatives and Christians are appalled by this event. Let's not get crazy and make them all seem guilty by "association".





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
LadyX
Posted: Monday, August 1, 2011 7:28:00 AM

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But that's the thing: is he really crazy? If we want to define 'crazy' as anyone willing to take a life, and/or carry out terrorism, then maybe so. Otherwise, it seems as if we are confusing sociopathic (evil?) behavior with insanity.
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, August 1, 2011 7:29:11 AM

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LadyX wrote:
But that's the thing: is he really crazy? If we want to define 'crazy' as anyone willing to take a life, and/or carry out terrorism, then maybe so. Otherwise, it seems as if we are confusing sociopathic (evil?) behavior with insanity.


Yes, I stand corrected. He is a sociopath, but that doesn't necessarily disqualify him as crazy.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, August 2, 2011 1:16:57 PM

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lafayettemister wrote:
LadyX wrote:
But that's the thing: is he really crazy? If we want to define 'crazy' as anyone willing to take a life, and/or carry out terrorism, then maybe so. Otherwise, it seems as if we are confusing sociopathic (evil?) behavior with insanity.


Yes, I stand corrected. He is a sociopath, but that doesn't necessarily disqualify him as crazy.


Don't you have to be insane to be a sociopath of that degree? We're not talking a little bit antisocial here. We're talking murderously psychotic.
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