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MrNudiePants
Posted: Thursday, August 11, 2011 9:46:38 PM

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Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,226
Location: United States
Sexysusan wrote:
That's exactly what I was saying 'Chefkathleen'. In the USA you DO have a police force to protect you. I have been to your country many times. In this country we have a token police force whose teeth and arms may as well have been amputated by EU laws revolving around political correctness and human rights. They could face prosecution themselves if they don't observe their status and do accordingly - which means they are all but ineffective.


That's actually a common misconception. There are nowhere near enough cops on our streets to keep us safe from harm. You can tell by the number of crimes that get committed every year. It's incumbant upon the average citizen to take whatever steps he deems necessary to keep himself safe. Nearly every state now allows properly qualified and law-abiding citizens to obtain official permission to carry concealed weapons. Many states have "Castle Donctrine" laws that allow you to defend your home against burglars. Some have laws that protect normal citizens if they have to defend themselves against attackers in public.

Most people here choose not to jump the hurdles (and go through the rigorous background checks) that allow them to carry concealed weapons. Many get self-defense training. Many carry other forms of weapons, including knives, clubs, etc. But over all, citizens here have to (and are allowed to) take responsiblity for their own safety.

During the Rodney King riots in Los Angeles, (as I brought up before) the police acted the same way your police are acting. They just stood back and let the looters run amok. Many stores were looted and destroyed. A very few stores had owners that armed themselves and stood watch. Those stores were unharmed. There were lawsuits pressed against the law enforcement officers and their departments, for dereliction of duty, but the courts ruled that the police have no obligation or duty to protect the citizenry or their property. Those lawsuits were all dismissed.

Having guns in the hands of citizens doesn't make a place more dangerous, unless the only people that possess the guns are criminals.
LadyX
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011 1:13:23 AM

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Posts: 4,804
eviotis wrote:


That Russell Brand can really be brilliant when he wants to. What a fantastic article.

Major upheavals take place for a reason. Dismissing the actions does not make the underlying cause go away.

We in western society (and I'm just as guilty as anyone) glamorize wealth and material possessions. We apply pressure on all of society to obtain what is new, trendy, expensive, and flashy. We advocate a society of frivolous purchases, yet who sees most of the billboards and street ads?

The underclass that lives and walks along those streets that are lined with the ads. Surrounded by those in the nice cars, wearing the designer jeans. Things that the chosen few can afford, defining success, excluding the majority. Is it a crime to advertise your product? Of course not, just don't pretend to be shocked when it becomes another brick in the resentment wall.

The rich are getting rich, the poor are getting poorer. Does that excuse the actions? Of course not. There, can we all feel better now? We've properly judged the actions, and expressed the requisite shock at the incivility. Aside from the implication that these are a lesser class of people, the above reaction is completely reasonable. But can we not stop and recognize that we reap what we sow?

Who the fuck feels like their vote makes a difference? Who feels like things are getting better, not worse? Who feels that they really can have a reasonable expectation to rise above their current place in society? Who feels like anyone will pay a bit of attention (aside from a dismissive, condescending glance) unless they do something extreme?

For all but the coveted 'haves' of the world, the answer is "not many", especially among people I know, and from what I read and see, young adults everywhere. Most don't loot and maim, but that doesn't mean that this simmering resentment for this lie of a dream we're fed isn't there, isn't palpable.

Government doesn't care because they're not forced to, until something like this happens. But will it change anything? Hell no.

Conservative thought seems to value individuality, self-reliance, lack of interference, and greed. Those are virtues that a huge percentage of people hold true. Community doesn't mean shit. The President is ridiculed for being a community organizer, for fuck's sake. Yes, what a joke, that he efforted to make poor, broken communities whole and functional again. Who needs that?

They want to tear apart the notion of a people that works together and sees value in the collective good, then this is what they get. Enjoy the fear. Have fun in your car-only culture with 1/3 of everyone so mad that they're willing to destroy their surroundings, showing just how fucking worthless they are to them. Have fun behind your iron gates, ridiculing the great unwashed that you don't even deign to mix with. Is it really any wonder that this stuff happens?

Riotfan wasn't born riotfan. He embraced riots, as Russell Brand says, to fill a void. To, in a primitive way, make right some of the wrongs that he internalizes.

What we neglect, we will lose. Lose respect for citizens, and the citizens will lose respect for everything you claim to represent.

I'm not saying it's right, but we're kidding ourselves to say it's senseless. It makes sense if we lower our denial just a bit. Let's look further.
Guest
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011 1:45:37 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
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we had morons up here in nottingham trying to best the london riots on tuesday night. something like seven of our police stations were petrol bombed and they tried to break into the victoria shopping centre, didnt get very far but the mess they have left behind will cost local councils a small fortune to put right. its purely the mind set of people today and if i can just share with everyone i live just under the povertly line and i didnt go out trashing the place. as someone has already said our police force cant really do what you would expect a western police force to do, the respect for them and indeed anyone else has gone completey out the window.

the first thing i did when returning home was lock everything down, the riots were 1 mile from my home. yeah i can say i was very concerned about what may spread from the riot point so a had a nice crowbar ready. the protection of my missus was paramount to me at that point and if any fucker has going to try it i would of taken things into my own hands

cheers
susat

PS atleast 90 people were hurled into nottingham court yesterday to face up to what they did in the riots
Swollen
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011 2:37:08 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 5/27/2010
Posts: 1,038
Location: United Kingdom


Can that be for real !! Let's hope he pinched it from Del-Boy and it explodes whilst he's 'on the job'.
rxtales
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011 7:12:16 AM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 11/28/2008
Posts: 2,589
Location: Newcastle, United Kingdom
JJ3790 wrote:


I no longer have one job because they destroyed the restaurant I worked at. It was stupid. They had to bring 16,000 policemen onto the streets of London to keep it quiet. Ridiculous.



I hear a lot about how all of this is for the social injustices we have in England. The lower classes feel that have no chance in life, unemployment is high...etc So what do they do? They go and destroy shops, which can longer employ people, because they simply no longer exist and cause hundres of thousands of pounds worth of damage. It´s not a protest, these actions are not against the government. It´s just a bunch of yobs wrecking their local communites, most of which aren´t the upper class one, but the ones they live in.

Although I don´t see how this is really a protest, I think it has brought up a lot deep rooted issues in our society. We live in a country that has free schooling, and relatively inexpensive university fees (until next year). We have free health care and more social programs than most other countries. I don´t have much sympathy for people who aren´t working hard to acheive any sort of qualifications or to obtain the sort of lifestyle they want. I understand it´s difficult, but I don´t think a lot of people even try. Maybe I have spent too much time in the UK, in countries where most people don´t go to school and can´t afford food.

I think among my generation, in London at least, people have just gotten a bit lazy. Last year I was working ridiculous hours on minimum wage in a job I hated. I made almost exactly the same as a friend who was getting unemployment benefits. I have another friend who is getting unemployment benefits and has started working a part time job. When they asked him to do more than 9 hours a week, he refused, because then he would lose his checks. There is no reason why he wouldn´t be able to get a full time job. He has a good education, two bachelor degrees and all sorts of experience. This is the downside - there are always going to be people who exploit the system.

I just think there is absolutely no excuse for the things that are happening now. It´s just people who want to go on a shopping spree and wreak havoc.

As for guns. Thank goodness not many people have them. Can you imagine how bad this would have been if most rioters had guns?

As for self defence. In England you can only use force equal to that used upon you, or you can be charged with assault. So, if you are being raped then you can legally stab them or whatever. There have been a few courtcases where people have shot intruders in their house. One man was convicted for manslaughter after shooting an intruder in the back, reason being that if his back was turned than he couldn´t have been an immediate threat.

Things have calmed down a lot. I have spent the past couple of days cleaning up my friends apartment. His office (which he owns) was completely burnt down, and his house was broken into.

LadyX
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011 8:01:46 AM

Rank: Artistic Tart
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Posts: 4,804
rxtales wrote:


I just think there is absolutely no excuse for the things that are happening now. It´s just people who want to go on a shopping spree and wreak havoc.



I agree that whatever social conditions may exist, they are no excuse for destruction, especially of this severity. But it's got to be caused by something more than just people wanting to shoplift, vandalize, and cause mayhem. Even if that's their immediate goal, what gets thousands of people to that point?

Question for the group, especially on the heels of a welfare discussion where groups of people are just dismissed as "lazy bums": Do you feel that extensive social programs actually help to cause this sort of behavior? Do you feel that the helping hand cause laziness, which in turn festers into violence?

I've yet to understand the point of view that additional help actually causes laziness and antisocial behavior. It seems to me that one is either lazy (or a destructive asshole) or they are not.

It may help us make immediate sense of this by sorting all perpetrators into the criminal drawer, but it gets us no closer to progress to not consider the causes.
steffanie
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011 11:10:37 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 11/10/2008
Posts: 139
LadyX wrote:
It seems to me that one is either lazy (or a destructive asshole) or they are not.



Lazy isn't the right word - in most cases.

Low or non earners lack incentive because their benefits are cut too heavily and too quickly the more they earn.

They end up working for an extremely low take home pay rate - so most don't bother.



Guest
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011 11:10:15 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 779,317
On the other hand I think "LAZY" is quite appropriate.

Politicians lack any foresight and are lazy in their explanations and/or are lazy in their pursuit of understanding all the finite layers of a current issue. They will glad hand any issue that is pipelined with serious campaign contribution, or that sells.

The electorate are lazy enough to excuse themselves of the responsibility to become well read about those who they will vote for, or boast that they don't or won't vote, "cause it just won't make a difference."

Yes, it won't, if those who seek power already know that the expectations on them are already low. We, they, all, are quick to point the finger cause it's easy, and lazy.

No one checks to make sure that the pot is simmering and cooking smoothly, but when it over boils, then it's the other persons fault.
Guest
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011 11:25:24 PM

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eviotis wrote:
On the other hand I think "LAZY" is quite appropriate.

Politicians lack any foresight and are lazy in their explanations and/or are lazy in their pursuit of understanding all the finite layers of a current issue. They will glad hand any issue that is pipelined with serious campaign contribution, or that sells.

The electorate are lazy enough to excuse themselves of the responsibility to become well read about those who they will vote for, or boast that they don't or won't vote, "cause it just won't make a difference."

Yes, it won't, if those who seek power already know that the expectations on them are already low. We, they, all, are quick to point the finger cause it's easy, and lazy.

No one checks to make sure that the pot is simmering and cooking smoothly, but when it over boils, then it's the other persons fault.


Which then sets the stage for them to point the finger and use the occasion to use all means up to and including deadly force to attempt to correct the problem when all boils over
Guest
Posted: Saturday, August 13, 2011 5:47:17 AM

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Yeah! Pretty much, on both ends.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, August 13, 2011 8:38:46 AM

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Time for the unemployed ranter. I'm unemployed and it's not that I'm not looking for a job or that I've had such a bad education that I can't find a job. I'm frustrated with not working, I'm pissed off that I'm firing off applications every day and getting no replies, but rioting about it? Never! I've been brought up better than that and I have pride in my country. Sure I don't live in London, so I'm not fully aware of the general feeling there, but I'm sure it's mostly the same around the whole of Britain.

Anyway, to bring it back to the rioters, I think that it's as I mentioned: The rioters are not proud of the country in which they live. This is not a racial attack, but just look at the colour of the people who are rioting - not many British faces, are there? To some immigrants, it's just a place to stay and to some others it's home. Those of them that are citing reasons of "not feeling part of the community" are idiots. Don't they see that by rioting they are ostracising themselves further? If you want to be part of the community, be part of it, join in, contribute, be BRITISH.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, August 13, 2011 12:33:49 PM

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Posts: 779,317








Which protesters/rioters are Greek and which one's Spanish?

I look at the photos, and I see hurt, decayed dreams, and anger. So those who riot in the US, be sure to check your passports, otherwise shut the hell up?

Nice Eurocentric philosophy. Just when I thought maybe, just maybe.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, August 13, 2011 2:32:04 PM

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if I went to live in a different country and wasn't happy with the political situation, I sure as hell wouldn't riot about it. what's the point? Eurocentric? Us Brits are controlled too much by the EU and I for one hate it. Race relations may have something to do with the riots, but I still think it's a lack of patriotism from immigrants.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, August 13, 2011 3:51:40 PM

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I pray that the London Riots stop soon! We need peace around the world!
Guest
Posted: Saturday, August 13, 2011 4:00:18 PM

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It is part of the problem, reason why I posted the article one page one (1). I live in Miami, cultures and ethnicities are numerous. But a prevalent notion amongst latin americans is that all should speak spanish. It's a microscopic symptom where you should assimalte and you should acclimate, but there is the macro notion, on my part, that we need to give that up and think globally. Yes, it's cliche. If we give our immediate neighbour investiture in the immediate surroundings, then maybe, not assuredly, respect will follow. And yes, there are assholes no matter the scenario. Which I believe is mostly the cause in this case.

Us Brits? Why not we humans? We humans are appalled by their inhumanity.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, August 13, 2011 4:28:57 PM

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point taken, eviotis. I think that if you are going to a country to live or even if just to holiday, you (I say you, i really mean humanity as a whole) should take the courtesy of learning the language and customs. I know I would. On a more positive note, what's it like living in Miami, I've always fancied it.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, August 13, 2011 5:05:14 PM

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And your's as well. We can hope, but reality usually bites us in the ass.

Miami is comfortable, no snow and the occasional Hurricane, but at least you can see it coming. Can be like that shop/deli/restaurant counter where if you don't know how to place an order, the other people in line are unforgiving. Beautiful on most days, and would be more so with some mountains.

A guy on South Beach once told me that Miami is more L.A. than L.A. is.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, August 13, 2011 6:12:05 PM

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Humanity's a bitch isn't it? But I still love my fellow human, even if they don't love me back, the way I see it, it's the effort that matters. Miami sounds nice, but I couldn't cope with the heat. Weather wise Glasgow's mostly rainy, but when it's sunny it's way too hot, for me at least. The mix of people is nice, some assholes and some nice folks, but don't bother them and they won't bother you :)
rxtales
Posted: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 9:55:45 AM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 11/28/2008
Posts: 2,589
Location: Newcastle, United Kingdom
Gurlyboy wrote:
Time for the unemployed ranter. I'm unemployed and it's not that I'm not looking for a job or that I've had such a bad education that I can't find a job. I'm frustrated with not working, I'm pissed off that I'm firing off applications every day and getting no replies, but rioting about it? Never! I've been brought up better than that and I have pride in my country. Sure I don't live in London, so I'm not fully aware of the general feeling there, but I'm sure it's mostly the same around the whole of Britain.

Anyway, to bring it back to the rioters, I think that it's as I mentioned: The rioters are not proud of the country in which they live. This is not a racial attack, but just look at the colour of the people who are rioting - not many British faces, are there? To some immigrants, it's just a place to stay and to some others it's home. Those of them that are citing reasons of "not feeling part of the community" are idiots. Don't they see that by rioting they are ostracising themselves further? If you want to be part of the community, be part of it, join in, contribute, be BRITISH.


I don´t agree with what you are saying about most of them not being British. Just because they aren´t white, doesn´t mean they are immigrants, and aren´t British. I think in General, Brits are a lot less patriotic than other nations. I don´t cadone the rioting, and really don´t think it is a protest and people aren´t going to acheive anything, but I have said that before. I understand "not feeling part of the community," especially in a city like London. There are a lot of class differences. London is also massive with so many different groups of people, I think it´s hard for people to feel a sense of community at times.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 7:16:13 PM

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That is the promise we should all live up to.

I saw this guy on C-SPAN, don't know all his ins and outs, but the words ring true. Gun issue, NO! Simplistic counter pointing of fingers, NO! Meh, what do I know?
MissyLuvsYa
Posted: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 7:53:10 PM

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Joined: 3/12/2011
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Location: somewhere on the coast, United States
I think the rioting looters are just thugs run amuck.
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