Welcome Guest Search | Active Topics | Members | Log In | Register

Socialist Economics explained. Options · View
mercianknight
Posted: Thursday, March 01, 2012 8:49:55 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/11/2009
Posts: 2,027
Location: whispering conspiratorially in your ear, Bermuda
"SOME IDEAS ARE SO STUPID ONLY INTELLECTUALS BELIEVE THEM."
George Orwell

When the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. Is this professor truly a genius? Apparently this is a true story that was not caught by my spam filter!!!


An economics professor at a U.S. college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan". All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.

The second test average was a D! No one was happy.

When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. It could not be any simpler than that.

These are possibly the 5 best sentences you'll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:

1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!

5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.


Make what you will from the above, however, for me it has reinforced my belief that 'pure' socialism is as bad as 'pure' capitalism. So, politics aside, do you agree with the conclusions of the above (whether real or imaginary)?

"Whoa, lady, I only speak two languages, English and bad English." - Korben Dallas, from The Fifth Element

"If history repeats itself, and the unexpected always happens, how incapable must man be of learning from experience?" - George Bernard Shaw
LadyX
Posted: Thursday, March 01, 2012 9:04:24 AM

Rank: Artistic Tart
Moderator

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,813
Well, first off, that story is a myth, no doubt authored by an economic conservative looking for a compelling parable. Even if it's fiction, it does make a point, albeit an overly simplistic one.

It's never that black and white in society. The word "socialism" gets thrown around way too often and too loosely. Mainly, it's used as an insult to liberals. I wonder how many people that scream "socialist!" at the top of their lungs could actually define the word. My guess is that it's near zero. So those that want the utopian tiny-government myth throw the word around as a scare tactic, completely skewing the debate toward something far from civil as well as the facts at hand.

There's a debate to be had about the direction of our economy, of our federal government, and where the two intersect. Many think that a health care mandate is a bad idea, but over time I've learned to tune out the screaming unless they're coming at it from a practical/economic standpoint, because the concept of socialism has practically nothing to do with it. There's also a debate to be had about the public welfare, and how we manage (and do our best to reduce the numbers within) our lower and working classes. But public aid is not socialism, unless you live in crazy-ultraconservative land, where apparently we should let people die poor, bankrupt, and ill. If only they'd tried harder, right?
Guest
Posted: Thursday, March 01, 2012 1:12:11 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 659,513
Always wondered what Obama's socialism actually is? He took money from the masses and gave it to the bankers. I don't think that's how socialism works.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Thursday, March 01, 2012 8:45:00 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,190
Location: United States
LadyX wrote:


It's never that black and white in society. The word "socialism" gets thrown around way too often and too loosely. Mainly, it's used as an insult to liberals. I wonder how many people that scream "socialist!" at the top of their lungs could actually define the word. My guess is that it's near zero. So those that want the utopian tiny-government myth throw the word around as a scare tactic, completely skewing the debate toward something far from civil as well as the facts at hand.


You'll probably never know how right this is. As a firearms enthusiast, I spend a considerable amount of time in venues where the average user considers himself a strict conservative. He uses the word 'socialist' to define any ideology other than what he believes "conservatism" to be. His idol is Ronald Reagan. (He can't conceive of the fact that Reagan was hardly fiscally conservative. Tell him that our national debt problem can actually be laid at Reagan's doorstep, and he'll flat out call you a liar.) He marches firmly in lockstep with whatever talking head preaches his mantra most effectively. He can't be bothered to fact-check - he's too busy working for a living. In fact, he can't really be bothered to actually think about his positions on current affairs. It's much easier to let someone else tell him what being a conservative means, and what he should stand for. As long as he has food on the table, entertainment on the TV, and a beer in hand, he's comfortable letting others run the show.

Of course, the same could be said for most modern "liberals", too.

1curiouscat
Posted: Friday, March 02, 2012 11:20:52 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 4/25/2011
Posts: 1,144
Location: São Paulo , Brazil
MrNudiePants wrote:




Is this graph trustworthy?



Overwhelming Reality

From Across the Room
MrNudiePants
Posted: Friday, March 02, 2012 2:27:49 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,190
Location: United States
1curiouscat wrote:


Is this graph trustworthy?


It might be. It might not be. Here's the link.

Quote:
Who’s behind zFacts, oil companies or what? Nope. I’m Steve Stoft and this is my web site. I’m building it with a little help from my friends and volunteers, but so far, it’s mostly my work. I’m a Ph.D. economist and my day job is consulting for public electricity markets—California, PJM, ISO-NE, some private generators, and occasionally the World Bank, DOE and the UK Department of Energy and Climate Change. My professional web sites are stoft.com and www.global-energy.com. My books are Power System Ecomomics, and Carbonomics: How to Fix the Climate and Charge It to OPEC. I started out in physics and I still find that field more simpatico.

What are your biases? At heart, I’m a scientist; that means I’m a skeptic. I don’t trust easy answers especially from politicians. I also don’t trust extremists, either left or right. But I don’t think these are biases; they’re based on observation. It’s hard to know your own biases, but I believe openness, information, and clear thinking are helpful—maybe those are my bias. I tend to be hard headed and soft hearted.
Earthlyoblivion
Posted: Saturday, March 03, 2012 9:55:45 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/3/2011
Posts: 164
Location: Earthlyoblivion, United States
I don't want to get involved in the political debate but I would like to point out some things about pier review. Many individual in political debates like to prove their point of view is correct and use charts and graphs and expert opinions to make a point. Lost in this is the idea of peer review, which is an important part of the scientific process and often not applied in most political situation.

While the individual who writes the Zfact blog is a PhD economist from a prestigious university I do not see a reference to a peer reviewed article for the information he provides, which means no one has verified and vouched for accuracy of the information provided. This doesn't necessarily mean he is wrong or lying but it does give pause and should be noted. In addition there are no footnotes directing one to where this data is from so the reader may review it themselves, again something to give pause. Many of the blogger's supporting links just link back to another of his blot post. He does on occasion link to sources of data but this happens far too rarely to make me comfortable.

Peer review is important but it is also worth pointing out that it is not a guarantee of 'truth' as this article referencing a study in Nature points out:

http://www.economist.com/node/369961

I am pointing these things out not to take a side in the argument but to give folks some things to look for when presenting or providing evidence to support a claim or to evaluate information provided to them.
Users browsing this topic
Guest 


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS

Powered by Yet Another Forum.net version 1.9.1.6 (NET v4.0) - 11/14/2007
Copyright © 2003-2006 Yet Another Forum.net. All rights reserved.