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1curiouscat
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 11:23:08 AM

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I was presented with a situation a few days ago that rekindled an old question that I have never been able to fully answer with conviction.

No matter what religion you subscribe to or what teachings you follow, usually a fundamental composition is love, compasion, forgiveness... etc

*Is it ever ok to wish death upon someone?

*If yes, on what condition?

*Where is the line that turns this imoral thought moral?

There are some days I wake up and really believe it would be ok because the death of that person would do a greater good to our society as a whole. However, those days are few - most of the time I am blocked by something bigger (maybe naive) that in the end, its not a sustainable solution.

Makes me think, how diferent am I from the animals we lock in jail like Manson or the assassins we have seen perish like OBL, if at the end of the day we share the same thought of seing a third person dead?

what do you guys think?



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ArtMan
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 11:55:55 AM

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A very difficult question to answer because some people are truly evil. We could always hope that they might change but chances are great that they never will. Some of them certainly deserve to die for the heinous crimes they have committed. But to wish it so might cause one to take a closer look at their inner self.

You are invited to read Passionate Danger, Part II, a story collaboration by Kim and ArtMan.
http://www.lushstories.com/stories/straight-sex/passionate-danger-part-ii.aspx

1curiouscat
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 12:11:19 PM

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ArtMan wrote:
But to wish it so might cause one to take a closer look at their inner self.


Exactly my point. Could you pull the trigger?



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Guest
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 12:24:38 PM

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No, I don't think that it is ok...
1curiouscat
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 12:27:24 PM

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Mazza wrote:
No, I don't think that it is ok...


Not even for people like hitler for an extreme example?



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Guest
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 12:28:04 PM

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1curiouscat wrote:


Exactly my point. Could you pull the triger?


If someone hurt my children, I could and would pull the trigger. I know this about myself.


When people hurt children, I have wished nothing less than death upon them and usually a significant amount of pain and torture first. Embarassed Is it OK that I do? Probably not, but that I'm OK with.
Guest
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 12:43:14 PM

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1curiouscat wrote:


Not even for people like hitler for an extreme example?


No, not even for people like Hitler...

Guest
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 12:44:12 PM

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As a firm believer in capital punishment I believe that if you take a life you should pay the price with your life. But that is all in tune with the legal system and the Constitution of the United States which I am also hold in high esteem. But as a Christian it is not in my "mental wiring" to wish for someones death...

In my neck of the woods I was witness to a heinous crime where a "man" laid in waiting and ambush the police officers that arrived. Three officers died and one was the brother of a very close friend. If I was there I would have gladly pulled the trigger and put a quick end to his life. And I have no idea how the officers that did finally arrest him were able restrain themselves and to not just shoot him. However the legal system worked the way it is intended to and he was sentenced to death. How long the legal process will take to finally deliver justice is any ones guess.

A long answer to a short question but that is just my humble opinion.
Guest
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 1:01:22 PM

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If you put someone to death in the name of justice, why doesn't that make you just as bad as the killer? Does that not lower you to his/her level?

btw, Sure it's okay to wish someone dead. But to actually act upon it is up to your inner self and what you believe to be the difference between right and wrong. At least in your mind to make you feel good about your decision.
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 1:20:54 PM

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I have no problem with it, and yes under the right circumstances, I could pull the trigger without flinching.

In certain criminal cases, keeping someone alive and in jail is a waste of resources and prolonging the inevitable. It costs Canadian taxpayers $85,000 a year to keep one person in prison. Maybe if we lowered prison standards, my thoughts on this would change, but in extreme cases that have a double-proof of beyond a reasonable doubt (like violent-crime cases with unwavering evidence, eyewitnesses and life without parole sentences etc) then sure - put 'em down.

I also think that prisoners who would like to opt for suicide rather than continue their sentence behind bars, should be candidates for elective euthanasia.

I don't really understand why Americans get all panicked about the moral dilemma of causing death or allowing capital punishment. For the people that own and carry guns, chances are high that if you saw a crime happening, you'd be enforcing your own version of justice on the spot. What difference does it make if you're pulling the trigger in a heated moment or signing the form post-trial for the death penalty? Either way - the person is dead.



Guest
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 1:30:54 PM

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"There are some days I wake up and really believe it would be ok because the death of that person would do a greater good to our society as a whole. However, those days are few - most of the time I am blocked by something bigger (maybe naive) that in the end, its not a sustainable solution.

Makes me think, how diferent am I from the animals we lock in jail like Manson or the assassins we have seen perish like OBL, if at the end of the day we share the same thought of seing a third person dead?"



For starters what makes you think you know what is best for "society?" Would that make you any different then the people sitting on capital hill? I do agree that there are some people that should be taken out for the greater good, some of them are "normal" people that make dumb choices that wreck others lives, some are cheaters, and some are killers. In the end we are not different from the people in jail, we share the same thoughts, idea, the only difference is that we haven't acted on them. We haven't killed someone just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. We are human we all share the same capabilities to kill someone, no matter if we are a "good" person or a "bad" person.
Buz
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 1:48:44 PM

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I think I could pull the trigger on some of the most evil scum that inhabit the planet. But I guess I'll never know, unless governments collapse, chaos ensues and we have some kind of post-apocolyptic scenario. If that happens I do have more than enough weapons to be prepared.

I do agree with Dancing_Doll that prisoners for life should have the option to opt out and commit suicide. That would save the tax payers a lot of money and we do need to cut government spending.

To answer Doll's question about Americans and the death penalty, I think my only concern with the death penalty is that I do not trust our prosecutorial system. Prosecuting district attorneys are elected politicians and I do not trust their moral judgement about only going after the guilty. I think they go after the easiest victim to prosecute and don't care whether it is the right person or not. Other than that I am all for murderers, rapists, and child molesters getting the death penalty. Furthermore, if they are really guilty, then lethal injection is way too kind. There is no 'cruel and unusual' punishment. Bring back the medieval rack and/or hanging.

As for as the wishing as C-Cat asks, I would probably do that already in some cases.

Nikki703
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 2:19:32 PM

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If someone hurt my kids I would have no problem killing them. I know it is easy to say and when it came to crunch time maybe I wouldnt be able to pull the trigger. But I like to think I would.

And after watching the vid about Joseph Kony today, I dont think I would have any problem killing him either. I know this goes against most of what I believe in but some people do not deserve to live and why should tax payers pay to keep them alive.
sprite
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 2:30:34 PM

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While i don't believe in 'an eye for an eye' nor do i believe in the death penalty, i am all too aware of how, when it becomes personal, beliefs often are laid aside. if i was protecting someone i loved, and the only way to do that was to kill someone? yeah, i doubt i'd give it a second thought in the heat of the moment, nor regret my decision afterwards - it might haunt me, be if the choice was between a loved ones life and a killer? no contest.

oh, and yes, that includes my kitties. if someone tried to hurt them, i would do anything within my power to stop them. i am small, but fierce.


Live, love, laugh.
Warlock
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 3:35:39 PM

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Yes.. there are people in this world who just need killin'.. anyone who hurts women, children or animals goes to the top of my list.. and some I'll just wound first before I kill 'em...
Quicksilver
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 3:36:59 PM

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This is an interesting topic, the general question of wishing people dead, is I guess fine. As for capital punishment I tend to think that the only people it really punishes is the family and friends of the person executed, the dead feel no pain and as such there is no punishment to the criminals.

I also believe that if we go down the death penalty route then we become the monsters that we fear, where is the line that differentiates us from them?
1curiouscat
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 3:51:15 PM

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I think its a given, as we have all already discussed in previous threads, that in order of self defense or to protect someone we loved, any form of violence and even death is ok.

I don't want to turn this into a political debate questioning the morality of capital punishment. Or wether its more beneficial to jail someone for a lifetime or not.

My questioning is in the exact moral exemption we give ourselves. For example, I consider myself a compassionate person and don't believe in an eye for an eye (and here it comes) However, given the right situation, I can discard all of my personal and moral fiber and go completely against it. Does this mean I never really believed in this "moral" position to begin with?

I was listening to a columnist on the radio, on my way to work today, and he was giving his opinion about corruption in the brazilian government and how much progress is inhibited as a consequence of these purely selfish acts by a few rotten apples. Later in the day I read an article about the whole Limbaugh episode in the states, in addition there was a thread recently about how many people listen to him and others - from both side of the aisle.

I somehow linked them together in the following though -- If by some crazy reason these men were killed in a plane crash or some uncommon catastrophe or a insane gunman - How would I feel?

Analyzing the situation as a whole, I came to the conclusion that their death would be positive and that puzzled me.







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Guest
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 4:25:17 PM

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It's difficult, and I personally don't really feel like I've had enough time on this planet to come to my own conclusions about this yet... so I won't give my 'opinion', so to speak, more a muddle of thoughts I've had on it.

My first thought is always 'how do two wrongs make a right?' but, that said, if someone is mentally inclined to commit a really hideous crime, such as murder, perhaps they really should be 'got rid of', for the sake of society? We all know that people that have previously committed crimes are, statistically, quite likely to do it again. And, why should tax payers be paying for such people to be kept alive and ticking over?

The other thing that I always think of is that I don't think 'taking a life' is the only thing that should be considered to result in the crime committer being binned off. There are many acts that will ruin someone's life, make them wish they actually had been killed, to me that is just as bad as murder. Here I'm talking about various kinds of abuse that results in people living in fear, being unable to form proper relationships with people/potential partners; generally having a far, far lower quality of life thanks to one person's crime. I don't know that I think anything should result in the death penalty....but I also see the reasoning behind why some things should.

I know that that was quite possibly the most inconclusive post ever written...but I had to come to conclusions and opinions on something I'm not sure about/haven't done enough research into etc.

As for when it becomes immoral... I suppose for me that would be when it becomes a 'selfish' thing, 'I want him dead because it benefits me' as opposed to 'I want him dead for the good of society'. But, what does benefit you, and what good would things do for society? BAH, I feel like I've just gone around in circles and smacked heads....with my own head.
Ryario_Darkstar
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 7:17:08 PM

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Always contemplated this, but ultimately the answer I come up with is no I have no right to wish or cause harm on another's life Ill even sometimes go out of my way to let a bug outside. and the people I work with make fun of me for it, but In turn I ask them how youd like it if a giant spider squished you because it thought you were icky?
Guest
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 10:26:50 PM

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It wouldn't be just for the kids sake. I can wish death upon someone, or a thought of how much nicer things would be without that special someone without hesitation. Are we the virus on the earth? Or, if not, are we not just beings/entities/ part of the whole that is the body of existence? So, on a holistic or altruistic level, those who are the virus to good balance, good vibe, and simple good intention disrupt that in any disgusting, vulgar, and inhumane way, then off with them. Manson (Charlie, not Marilyn), Hitler, Kony, Bashar al-Assad, Lukashenko, Limbaugh, and Glenn Beck, I can wish death on them without any remorse or question to my own morality.
charmbrights
Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:32:25 AM

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Dancing_Doll wrote:
... In certain criminal cases, keeping someone alive and in jail is a waste of resources and prolonging the inevitable. ...

That wouldn't be my argument. I believe that to keep someone in jail for many years, and for them then to die in captivity is the ultimate cruelty. If I treated an animal like that I would be breaking the law.



News of ALL my novels (and where to get free copies) on charmbrights.webs.com/novels.htm.
Eodman
Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2012 11:57:59 AM

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Well now this is interesting - do you include folks that are in the service, that have looked down the barrel of a weapon and squeezed the trigger? I can tell you I have wished that person on the other side dead!

But I also believe in an eye for an eye! But than I know I can be a vindictive person! Hurt my loved ones or friends and there is no doubt in my mind!
sprite
Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:16:15 PM

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charmbrights wrote:

That wouldn't be my argument. I believe that to keep someone in jail for many years, and for them then to die in captivity is the ultimate cruelty. If I treated an animal like that I would be breaking the law.



Also, studies have shown that it is MORE expensive, at least in the US, to keep an inmate on death row than it is to keep him in prison for life. in California, more than 3500 men and woman have received this sentence in California since 1978 and there have only been 13 or so actual executions - the rest of them are kept in special holding cells while appeal after appeal is made, tying up court time, and costing tax payers untold amounts of money - it's VERY expensive!

just to prove my point, i looked it up :)

California could save $1 billion over five years by replacing the death penalty with permanent imprisonment.

California taxpayers pay $90,000 more per death row prisoner each year than on prisoners in regular confinement.


Live, love, laugh.
Quicksilver
Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:07:02 PM

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I think that deep down within all of us is the most basic, pre-programmed survival instincts that take over when loved ones are threatened and most would act in any given situation to a) prevent harm to our nearest and dearest, and to b) eliminate the threat.

This is how humanity has managed flourish.

However this still leaves us with the threat of those individuals who refuse to live to societies rules that most of us accept to be the norm, being from the UK I have real issues with the death penalty, this then gives rise to the question of what we do with the criminality in our societies, the cost of keeping prisons open is so extreme and the real injustice for me is that prisoners get a roof over their heads and decent meals, things that some people in our own communities struggle to provide for their kids in the current economic climate.

Maybe hard Labour should be introduced with the money being paid direct to the victim's or their family, not just a few pounds but a substantial amount to provide a real deterrent.
stephanie
Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:51:34 PM

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You hurt one of mine, I'll make sure you can't ever do it again.

xx SF

"Window Shopping for a NEW Crown Of Thorns..." xx SF
Guest
Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2012 3:10:08 PM

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There's a difference between wishing someone dead and acting on impulse in a survival situation.

To clarify - I would not have a problem defending myself or my loved ones in a situation like that - but that is very different than wishing or planning someone's demise...
Guest
Posted: Friday, March 09, 2012 10:55:17 AM

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Mazza wrote:
There's a difference between wishing someone dead and acting on impulse in a survival situation.


I'm glad someone said that.
Guest
Posted: Friday, March 09, 2012 12:48:59 PM

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No, it is not OK. They're time will come eventually.
lafayettemister
Posted: Friday, March 09, 2012 1:02:05 PM

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1curiouscat wrote:
I was presented with a situation a few days ago that rekindled an old question that I have never been able to fully answer with conviction.

No matter what religion you subscribe to or what teachings you follow, usually a fundamental composition is love, compasion, forgiveness... etc

*Is it ever ok to wish death upon someone?

*If yes, on what condition?

*Where is the line that turns this imoral thought moral?

There are some days I wake up and really believe it would be ok because the death of that person would do a greater good to our society as a whole. However, those days are few - most of the time I am blocked by something bigger (maybe naive) that in the end, its not a sustainable solution.

Makes me think, how diferent am I from the animals we lock in jail like Manson or the assassins we have seen perish like OBL, if at the end of the day we share the same thought of seing a third person dead?

what do you guys think?


Whatever you do within the confines of your own head is fine. Everyone has thoughts that we'd never voice or share publicly. No one can tell you what you can and or can't think. Acting on those thoughts is a different thing.

As a teenager I remember thinking how much I hated my parents. They were soooo "unfair". I never said it out loud, which would have resulted in my ass being lit up. But i did think it. As do most kids probably. And they were/are great parents.

If it's in your head, it's no one's business.







When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Guest
Posted: Friday, March 09, 2012 6:50:41 PM

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Morality

Morality is subjectively defined. Considering the moment one is directly involved in or universally aware of. Can we be moral even though an action can be conspicuously defined as immoral? Again, it's subjective. But in the end, if that person causes the most harm to the most good, then in my mind, that entities death/removal from the status of the instant now is moral if such actions by the condemned crosses all barriers of acceptability and accountability.

If you're aim is to indulge in the killing of innocents, defy all levels of homeostasis by way of tyranny and cruelty, then sorry, you need to go.
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