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Buz
Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2012 2:31:18 PM

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Obviously I disagree about the guns & leftist government. I'll keep my guns and my freedom!

But I totally agree about the unscrupulous morons in the media and I fucking hate racists.

elitfromnorth
Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2012 2:39:20 PM

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Buz wrote:
Obviously I disagree about the guns & leftist government. I'll keep my guns and my freedom!



That's what one thing I see as a problem. That you combine guns with freedom. Do you consider yourself not free if you can't have a gun? What's to stop me from saying that I'm not free because I can't use drugs? Or that I need to follow rules from the government to be allowed to drive? I'm just curious.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
LadyX
Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2012 2:43:56 PM

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elitfromnorth wrote:

Do you consider yourself not free if you can't have a gun? What's to stop me from saying that I'm not free because I can't use drugs? Or that I need to follow rules from the government to be allowed to drive? I'm just curious.


You just summarized the platform of American Libertarianism.
elitfromnorth
Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2012 2:54:49 PM

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LadyX wrote:


You just summarized the platform of American Libertarianism.


I have know idea what that is, but if it's democrats or those to the further left then that's a compliment Hugs

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
LadyX
Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2012 2:57:27 PM

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elitfromnorth wrote:


I have know idea what that is, but if it's democrats or those to the further left then that's a compliment Hugs


In short, both ends of the spectrum are willing to sacrifice freedom for something. The far right will sacrifice it for order. The far left will sacrifice it for equality. Libertarians, on the other hand, don't want to sacrifice freedom for anything. The less government and laws the better, period- so say the Libertarians. That goes for guns, drugs, labor regulations, environmental protection...you name it.
elitfromnorth
Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:05:44 PM

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Well, then I kinda misunderstood =P That's not my political view at all. Being a social democrat I believe in a rather strong government and not the Libertarianism way of thinking. But my point still stays the same. If guns means freedom why do so many condem drugs and so forth? Why have rules on something but not rules on other things.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
LadyX
Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:26:35 PM

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The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees citizens the right to bear arms (own guns), having just left a country (England) where they weren't allowed to own guns, thus eliminating any reasonable chance they might have had to band together and fight back against oppressors (within the ruling government or otherwise). So, when creating this new country from scratch, they rectified that with the Second Amendment.

Many now argue that the days of needing to rise up and form a militia have long past, and it's time to get rid of the guns. Others (Tea Partiers, right-wingers paranoid about Obama) say the exact opposite, that now especially, Americans need to be vigilant against the government's potential abuse of power. Either way, the only way the right to own firearms goes away completely would be to repeal the second Amendment, and for many Americans, changes to the Constitution aren't considered up for discussion, let alone their chances of being ratified through both houses of Congress and signed by the President.
elitfromnorth
Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2012 4:25:53 PM

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The right to bear arms, yes. But does it say what kind of weapons? If it does not specify you can pretty much ban any kind of weapon that's not a hunting rifle or a small .22 calibre gun. Or you could just say "Well, if you wanna use a 18th century law then you better get a gun from the 18th" century. No type of gun patent that came after 1776. Plenty of legal loopholes to ban the stuff, as long as there's a desire.

Besides, the definition of a country is that the government and it's branches have a monopoly on use of violence. Right now, that's not the impression I'm getting from the US...

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
LadyX
Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2012 4:29:17 PM

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elitfromnorth wrote:

Besides, the definition of a country is that the government and it's branches have a monopoly on use of violence.


There's a way of thinking that says that the above definition of a country is a recipe for tyranny- or at least leaves the door open and unimpeded for it to occur if the government so chooses.
elitfromnorth
Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2012 4:44:43 PM

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LadyX wrote:


There's a way of thinking that says that the above definition of a country is a recipe for tyranny- or at least leaves the door open and unimpeded for it to occur if the government so chooses.


Bunch of other countries where they have no right to bear arms, and I don't see Norway and Sweden having dictators and tyrants running the country. Just look at the amount of people killed by guns every year in the US. It's one of the highest gun victim per capita ratio in the world. If people not owning tons of guns is the way to tyranny then half of Europe would to this date be run by dictators and one party states. It's a ludicrous way of thinking and it's scaremongering. The lack of will to reform in the US is frightning. In Norway we have changed our constitution multiple times, paragraphs removed, simply because we've realised times have changed and that some ideas that are now 200 years old simply won't work in the modern society. How many more innocent people will be killed before you realise that everyone owning guns and fearing for their lives the moment they see someone walking towards them might not be the right direction for a society. Is it really freedom when you know that every lunatic can buy a gun for no other reason than to own one? That your neighbour can own a high powered assultrifle and it's only a matter of time before he gets drunk and goes on a shooting spree? The idea of "Land of the free" is quickly fading.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
LadyX
Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2012 4:46:36 PM

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I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying. Just shedding some light on the other way of looking at it.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2012 9:07:12 PM

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elitfromnorth wrote:
Bunch of other countries where they have no right to bear arms, and I don't see Norway and Sweden having dictators and tyrants running the country. Just look at the amount of people killed by guns every year in the US. It's one of the highest gun victim per capita ratio in the world. If people not owning tons of guns is the way to tyranny then half of Europe would to this date be run by dictators and one party states. It's a ludicrous way of thinking and it's scaremongering. The lack of will to reform in the US is frightning. In Norway we have changed our constitution multiple times, paragraphs removed, simply because we've realised times have changed and that some ideas that are now 200 years old simply won't work in the modern society. How many more innocent people will be killed before you realise that everyone owning guns and fearing for their lives the moment they see someone walking towards them might not be the right direction for a society. Is it really freedom when you know that every lunatic can buy a gun for no other reason than to own one? That your neighbour can own a high powered assultrifle and it's only a matter of time before he gets drunk and goes on a shooting spree? The idea of "Land of the free" is quickly fading.


The problem is not a "gun" problem. It's a people problem. As long as people are fallible, unstable, or emotional, they'll find ways to harm each other. Did you know that the most heinous crimes in United States history weren't committed with a single firearm? When it comes to criminals and body counts, box cutters are the weapons used in the most lethal crimes committed. Bombs take second place. Our Constitution has been amended numerous times. In fact, that part of it that guarantees Americans the right to own firearms for self-defense is in itself an Amendment. The fact that amending our Constitution is not something we do lightly just shows you how highly we value it. We're loathe to change it because many times, the cure is worse than the ill. We value the 2nd Amendment because our nation was born out of rebellion against tyranny. Our forefather saw how easily the mighty weight of government could be used as a tool for evil and they acted in the best way they knew how to keep the American government in check. As long as our people are armed, the government will never develop the kind of dictatorship we've seen time and again in less-fortunate countries.

But our firearms aren't only for protection against an overbearing government. We also rely on them to defend ourselves and our loved ones against predators, both two- and four-legged. If you passed a law tomorrow outlawing private possession of guns, the result would be simple. Law-abiding people would dutifully turn in their guns, while criminals wouldn't. This would leave every honest citizen at the mercy of armed thugs. Studies have shown that one of the things criminals fear most is an armed victim, and rightfully so. Sure, every once in a while someone will use a gun to do something evil or stupid. If the gun didn't exist, he would just use a club, or a stick. Even in the best of civilizations there are criminals and malcontents. We could strive to be more like Norway if you like. But then we would just be waiting for the next Anders Breivik to come along. The world isn't a perfect place. All we can do is make the best of what we're given, and try to make it a better place, bit by bit.
Guest
Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2012 10:04:00 PM

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Lfunny

I truly laughed out loud. Thanks for the laugh.
elitfromnorth
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 4:00:58 AM

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MrNudiePants wrote:

But then we would just be waiting for the next Anders Breivik to come along.


I dunno if I should laugh or cry. Do you even know what kind of victims he chose? He set off a bomb and then attacked a youth camp where he knew there would under no circumstances be any armed police until the call to the police was made. Besides, the weapons he used was a standard issue rifle and a glock, both fully legal in Norway if you have a hunting licence and are a member of a pistol club. Imagine the death tolls of a man walking around with an assultrifle. It would be up in the triple figures.

And no, I'm not telling you to ban guns overnight, but how necessary is it to have machineguns and assultrifles in your home? Don't you think that stricter rules on weapons would minimise the acess criminals have to them? Of course they would still find ways to get weapons, but when it's more difficult to obtain a ware it suddenly becomes a lot more expensive, thus even the average criminal would have to figure out if he/she actually has the money to get a gun.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
MrNudiePants
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 6:13:17 AM

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elitfromnorth wrote:


I dunno if I should laugh or cry. Do you even know what kind of victims he chose? He set off a bomb and then attacked a youth camp where he knew there would under no circumstances be any armed police until the call to the police was made. Besides, the weapons he used was a standard issue rifle and a glock, both fully legal in Norway if you have a hunting licence and are a member of a pistol club. Imagine the death tolls of a man walking around with an assultrifle. It would be up in the triple figures.

And no, I'm not telling you to ban guns overnight, but how necessary is it to have machineguns and assultrifles in your home? Don't you think that stricter rules on weapons would minimise the acess criminals have to them? Of course they would still find ways to get weapons, but when it's more difficult to obtain a ware it suddenly becomes a lot more expensive, thus even the average criminal would have to figure out if he/she actually has the money to get a gun.


He was successful simply because he chose helpless people to be his victims. Allow people to defend themselves and there will be fewer victims. Do you even know the difference between your "standard issue" hunting rifle and your "assault rifle?" (Your terms, not mine.) Hunting rifles are more powerful, shoot farther, and are more lethal.

Besides-your posts here make Norway out to be some kind of peaceful paradise where nobody has any need for self-defense. How did a man like that come to be in thw first place?

Personally, I'd rather live somewhere like Switzerland, where there are guns in every home (many of them fully automatic rifles) and you still have a mostly peaceful society.
elitfromnorth
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 7:06:43 AM

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If your reasoning of "allow people to defend themselves and there will be far fewer victims" how come the gun murder ratio per capita puts US on the top(or at least increadibly high), while countries where there's a much stricter gun control have a much lower ratio?

And maybe Norway isn't shangri-la, but at least there's very very few guncrimes commited each year.

And how many rounds are fitted in a regular hunting rifle compared to an assultrifle? Not to mention reload rate and firerate. If you were Breivik, would you rather head out on a rather small island where shooting people would be not far from fish in a barrel with a hunting rifle or a fully automatic one?

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
lafayettemister
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 7:16:29 AM

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elitfromnorth wrote:


I dunno if I should laugh or cry. Do you even know what kind of victims he chose? He set off a bomb and then attacked a youth camp where he knew there would under no circumstances be any armed police until the call to the police was made. Besides, the weapons he used was a standard issue rifle and a glock, both fully legal in Norway if you have a hunting licence and are a member of a pistol club. Imagine the death tolls of a man walking around with an assultrifle. It would be up in the triple figures.

And no, I'm not telling you to ban guns overnight, but how necessary is it to have machineguns and assultrifles in your home? Don't you think that stricter rules on weapons would minimise the acess criminals have to them? Of course they would still find ways to get weapons, but when it's more difficult to obtain a ware it suddenly becomes a lot more expensive, thus even the average criminal would have to figure out if he/she actually has the money to get a gun.


Hi there Elit, been a long time.

Legally speaking, machine guns ARE illegal. No American citizen can purchase or own a fully automatic firearm. Semi-automatic firearms are legal. Small difference but there is one. I live in a southern state in America. Our state motto is Sportsmans Paradise because of the many lakes, rivers, and bayous available for fishermen. And for the huge amount of forests and wooded hunting grounds. Many many of my neighbors own guns. Most of them own hunting rifles and shotguns. I can't think of a single person that I know that owns an assault rifle. They just aren't very practical so only collectors buy them.

A smaller percentage of people own handguns. And most crimes that are commited with the help of a firearm are done so with a handgun. Overwhelmingly so. They are readily available on the black market, easy to carry and conceal, and easy to dispose of. Your point about stricter rules on firearms is well known. Anti-gun advocates in the States have promoted the same thoughts for years. Pro-gun advocates have rebuffed most of that for as long, bolstered by our 2nd Amendment. As MNP stated, the problem with rules on weapons (as stated by pro-gun people) is that it will do nothing to dissuade the criminal element. People who do or plan to commit crimes with a gun aren't going to just say "oh ok, guns are illegal so i'm gonna turn in my Glock". The criminals will keep the gun, the lawabiding citizen will turn his in adn thus become defenseless.

My personal opinion is that a person convicted of a crime with the uses of a gun should have a much severe prison sentence. If you get 10 years for burglary, you should get 20 for burglary with a gun. Punish the criminals for misuse of a weapon. Not ordinary responsible citizens.

A few years ago a car passed in front of my home. Four of five times, passed in front and slowed down to look. I just happened to look outside to see it the first time. Waited a couple minutes and they came back. And again. And again. It was about 10pm. When the driver stopped and got out of is car, squatted down low and looked into my home's glass front door from the road, I ran into my bedroom and got my 12 gauge shotgun. I made it back to the front door just as he was turning the knob to see if it was unlocked. When I turned on the light and he was faced the a double barrelled beast he bolted. I have no doubt in my mind that without that gun my home, possessions, and health and safety of myself and my family would have been seriously in danger. My wife had called 911 when the man got out of his car. But there's no way they could have gotten there in the next 60 seconds when this fool attempted to enter my home. My gun may have saved our lives.

I'm not saying guns are the answer to all of life's problems. But used properly, they are a valuable tool.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Buz
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 7:17:09 AM

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It is illegal to possess automatic weapons in the US.


"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
— Thomas Jefferson

"Most bad government has grown out of too much government."
— Thomas Jefferson

elitfromnorth
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 7:42:48 AM

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Buz wrote:

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
— Thomas Jefferson


Do you really believe that that quote is functional to this date? After all things have changed in the last 200 years.

And Lafayette; just curious if you know that the person was scared of your personal presence(i.e. the house not being empty) or the fact that you had a doublebarrel. Could it have been the former? Because from what you described it seemed like he had been looking for empty houses.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
lafayettemister
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 7:59:02 AM

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elitfromnorth wrote:


Do you really believe that that quote is functional to this date? After all things have changed in the last 200 years.

And Lafayette; just curious if you know that the person was scared of your personal presence(i.e. the house not being empty) or the fact that you had a doublebarrel. Could it have been the former? Because from what you described it seemed like he had been looking for empty houses.


I think he was there to do harm. The way my home was set up, the front double doors are glass from about 2ft from the bottom all the way to the top. From the street he could see the lights on in the living room. The two kids bedrooms are on that side of the house, both those lights were on. He knew someone was there. Had I just answered the door without being armed, he may well have tried to push himself in. He may not have. The shotgun took that problem out of the equation. Btw, I was calm and collected. Finger wasn't even on the trigger. I've been taught the correct way to handle a gun. No chance of an accidental discharge of the weapon.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Buz
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 8:10:20 AM

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I absolutely believe in this quote, now more than ever. Sometimes there are things worth dying for. Freedom, liberty & justice are among those I truly believe in. If an oppressive tyrannical government comes to take those from me then my blood will spill in the streets. Until that day I will fight to preserve liberty, freedom & justice through my political system, which gives me the right to. And I am very active in that.

My direct ancestors fought in the American Revolution and their spirit still boils in my heart and soul!

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
— Thomas Jefferson





MrNudiePants
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 8:32:13 AM

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lafayettemister wrote:


I'm not saying guns are the answer to all of life's problems. But used properly, they are a valuable tool.


I couldn't agree more.

On a side note, automatic rifles are not illegal for citizens to own, in America. But there is a limited number if "legal" machine guns on the books, and you have to go through one of the most thorough background checks imaginable to get oermission to buy one.
Buz
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 9:00:08 AM

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Fully automatic rifles are illegal in the USA unless you have a special permit/license. There are certain gun ranges that have permits to own fully automatic weapons and customers can pay to shoot those fully automatic guns on that gun range. many foreign tourist pay big bucks to do this. Especially Norwegians!!!*

There is a business (large gun range estate) in Kentucky that is very expensive, where you can go and under their supervision shoot all kinds of military weapons such as cannons, grenade & missile launchers, and 50 caliber machine guns!

I own an AK-47 but it is set up to be semi-automatic. I do know how I can change to to be fully automatic and it only takes about 15 minutes but possessing it in that form would be a federal offense. I keep up with that stuff because I personally own a few dozen guns for hunting, sport & self defense. I do have a Georgia permit to carry a concealed weapon.


*haha I'm just kidding Elit.

Jack_42
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 9:07:45 AM

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elitfromnorth wrote:


Think that's more a dream than what's actually gonna happen. You need a more leftist government than you have now and a Supreme Court that can say the second amendment does not inclued assultrifles. Or that it doesn't include guns at all. I don't mind the cops having guns, but when you have neighbourhood watch people with itchy triggerfingers there will be more incidents like this.
I don't exactly know what the amendment says I just know that our gun laws in the UK are so strict that I feel the situation being discussed would never have arisen as the defendant would be breaking the law by just trotting about with a gun. And I consider our government more to the right than anything and this question of left or right regarding guns would not be relevant. Though I do understand your realistic stance - there must be so many firearms floating around the US to be practically beyond control anyway.
naughtiestmommy
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 9:44:14 AM

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[quote=lafayettemister]How might things be different if the media had done this kind of research and put this amount of effort and information out in the beginning? Would it have made any difference? Or would people have reacted the exact same way?

Backstory on Zimmerman. Does any of this matter? Would this info have changed anyone's percptions of that awful night?

In a word: yes

.
.

I'm a loner, Dottie. A Rebel...
.
.

Guest
Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012 1:11:49 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 652,974
"On February 26, George Zimmerman shot and killed unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin in what Zimmerman says was self-defense."

Yes, there are "responsible" gun owners, and there is responsible journalism. I can see how that makes sense to those who can't see outside themselves, and look for any excuse, to excuse themselves.
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