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The next "Crusade" Options · View
elitfromnorth
Posted: Monday, May 28, 2012 4:20:44 PM

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Time to throw in a torch into the think thank.

Many of the far righters have been looking at the increase of immigration from mainly Muslim countries with worry. Their idea is that we will in the end have a full scale war between Christians and Muslims and that Europe will be the battlefield. This theory is shared by amongst others Breivik, the man who commited the 22nd of July attacks/massacre.

There is a more moderate view, saying that there will be a clash between Christianity and Islam, but it will be a more cultural and political one, not a full scale war that some believe.

Shout out your views, my friends.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
beowulf69
Posted: Monday, May 28, 2012 5:13:47 PM

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Christianity in general is not near radical enough for that anymore. I think you're looking more at a clash of cultures, Western Culture vs. Muslim (for lack of a better word) Culture. I seriously doubt there will be a war on epic proportions like the world wars of the past. If pushed too far, way beyond their current complacency, the West has the technology and capability to eradicate the mideasterners from the planet. They don't want to do that. They just want the oil. Most of the Muslin world also does not want to see any war pushed to that level either, just a large minority. In fact most people just want a decent standard of living and to be left alone. Governments make war and people pay the price.

My first story for Lush is posted, The Goodbye Fuck.
http://www.lushstories.com/stories/straight-sex/the-goodbye-fuck.aspx
LadyX
Posted: Monday, May 28, 2012 5:41:05 PM

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beowulf69 wrote:
Christianity in general is not near radical enough for that anymore. I think you're looking more at a clash of cultures, Western Culture vs. Muslim (for lack of a better word) Culture. I seriously doubt there will be a war on epic proportions like the world wars of the past. If pushed too far, way beyond their current complacency, the West has the technology and capability to eradicate the mideasterners from the planet. They don't want to do that. They just want the oil. Most of the Muslin world also does not want to see any war pushed to that level either, just a large minority. In fact most people just want a decent standard of living and to be left alone. Governments make war and people pay the price.


I largely agree with that. But 'the people' are followers, by and large. Given dire conditions, they're more apt to adopt parts or all of the extremist rhetoric that they're fed by their leaders. After all, it's taught as a means to a better end, as opposed to the terrible status quo that they're currently enduring. Poor societies, and even relatively prosperous societies in turbulent times, have been known to swing a large mass of their population toward a fanatical cause, so I'm certainly not ruling that out.

I'm an American, I've never visited Europe, let alone lived there. But I do see danger in appeasing Muslim culture, especially when they're not particularly upwardly mobile for whatever reason (another discussion/debate, I suppose). Appeasement doesn't usually work against an aggressive ethos, and I think Islam has proven itself to be no different in that regard. Does that mean that I believe Muslims are, on the whole, looking to take over and transform Western cultures? No. But I've read enough to feel fairly strongly about this, especially since a fundamental part of the overall mission of Islam is to spread its "truths" across all lands and seek to convert as many people as possible. Christianity is no different in this regard, they just tend to kill fewer family members for 'honor' purposes, blow up fewer airliners, and detonate fewer explosives these days.

Is there a danger in going 'zero tolerance' on Muslim culture, as France seems to want to do? I can see how antagonizing and ostracizing a religious culture could do more harm than good as well. But to be fair to the French, they have a long-standing (well, in modern times, anyways) tradition of secularism. They do not want the tone of their culture set by faith-based tenets and traditions, and I respect them for it.

Like anything else, there's a balance somewhere in between that seems like common sense, but in practice is hard to achieve. One thing I've seen written in a few different places is that the US (and Canada, for all I know) seems to have lesser problems with terrorist activities among Muslim residents because their traditions are mostly accepted and let be, and unlike the average Muslim immigrant in Europe, they tend to be more educated and ambitious, therefore there's less reason for them to take up with some crackpot Imam recruiting underwear bombers, etc.

In general, those with something to lose are less likely to risk their lives for immediate afterlife payoff. The more desperate elements of our societies become, let alone entire regions of the world, the more fertile the culture becomes for extremist ideals.

1curiouscat
Posted: Monday, May 28, 2012 6:08:32 PM

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beowulf69 wrote:


I think you're looking more at a clash of cultures, Western Culture vs. Muslim (for lack of a better word) Culture



Although LadyX makes good points, I believe that our next major clash will be along the lines of what Beo mentioned above. It will be more cultural then anything else. I have serious doubts that it will be a religious based conflict.

As optimistic as I am, I don´t see a possibility of not experiencing another century defining situation in my lifetime. I´m no physicist, but I know that when too much energy is channel in one place, eventually it bursts. Of course this is very simplistic, but all major conflicts can be seen like this. From civil wars to major world wars to a simple fist fight between enemies.

These instances like the case in Finland are just sparks that will light a fire in the near future.



Overwhelming Reality

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LadyX
Posted: Monday, May 28, 2012 6:11:34 PM

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To clarify, I don't think the two can be separated when it comes to Islam. The culture is the religion, and vice-versa. It's a difference in worldview, in which religion is heavily involved.
TransitionalMan
Posted: Monday, May 28, 2012 7:21:51 PM

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I think the next Crusade will be here, a clash between fundamentalists whose grip on reality grows ever more tenuous and more afraid of the rise of secularism, and i think it will be fought with terror mostly.
1curiouscat
Posted: Monday, May 28, 2012 7:55:28 PM

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LadyX wrote:
To clarify, I don't think the two can be separated when it comes to Islam. The culture is the religion, and vice-versa. It's a difference in worldview, in which religion is heavily involved.


I think thats a biased opinion created by those who have told us this story day in and day out. I don't think its any different then what happens with american culture and its judeo-cristian undertones.

There are moderates on both sides.



Overwhelming Reality

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Guest
Posted: Monday, May 28, 2012 9:35:36 PM

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Religion is the pawn that is offered to the masses, while those in control maneuver effortlessly amongst the fray.

"Don't believe the hype, it's a sequel."



There is no difference between us, we just continuously believe that there is.

LadyX
Posted: Monday, May 28, 2012 9:40:39 PM

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1curiouscat wrote:


I think thats a biased opinion created by those who have told us this story day in and day out. I don't think its any different then what happens with american culture and its judeo-cristian undertones.

There are moderates on both sides.


If your point was that the conflict was essentially a cultural one (which you were, by agreeing with Beowulf's Western v. Muslim cultural clash opinion), then my point is that you can't really separate the cultural and religious aspects when it comes to that particular side of the conflict. Yes there are moderates of all shapes and sizes, of course, but those who effort toward an ideal Muslim world aren't particularly tolerant of other ways of life, otherwise they wouldn't be pushing their agenda. Nor would they kill innocents, or oppress women, or murder family members, or actively oppose education, or..."strongly encourage" a certain type of attire in society at large.

Oppressors and radicals occur in all walks of life, but there's really no mistaking the pattern from a religious radical culture's perspective.

With all due respect to Eviotis, there really are all kinds of differences between us, based on our beliefs and worldview. It only furthers naivete to pretend otherwise.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Monday, May 28, 2012 9:44:18 PM

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There won't be any kind of conventional war, unless the "Western" countries lose most of their military might and the "Eastern" ones grow theirs enormously. That said, the conflict has been going on for quite a long time. It doesn't take a crystal ball to see terrorist strikes happening more often. You can look around and see more and more Muslims gaining political capital. As the influential Muslims gain louder voices in local and regional politics, the indigent citizenry will no doubt become irate at the idea. Will it get to the point where there's unrest in the populace, and violence in the streets? Undoubtedly so. Will it threaten the "Western" way of life? Muslim terrorists have already changed the way Europeans and Americans go about their daily lives. Laws will get stricter, civil liberties will be more and more curtailed, and life will become more unbearable with every passing year. All Muslims (and indeed the very religion) will be blamed, but the real culprits will be the extremists on both sides of the fence.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 4:46:18 AM

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MrNudiePants wrote:
Muslim terrorists have already changed the way Europeans and Americans go about their daily lives. Laws will get stricter, civil liberties will be more and more curtailed, and life will become more unbearable with every passing year. All Muslims (and indeed the very religion) will be blamed, but the real culprits will be the extremists on both sides of the fence.


I couldn't have said it better myself.

The one thing I cannot abide is when a whole group of people is blamed for a thing that only a few of them do. I work with Muslims in the UK (that counts as Europe, right?) and they are just normal people in my eyes. They make me laugh, and we get on absolutely fine. I don't think France are really being THAT bad towards Muslims to be honest. Yes, they banned the veil, but I can understand why they did that. I know people would find it offensive but the whole 'covered from head to toe' scares me! There could be a dude under there! Muslims don't NEED to wear those clothes, and plenty of them don't. Most of them have a liberal attitude, they want to integrate into Western society but there are a few who are simply stuck in their own ways which unfortunately gives the whole religion a bad name.
elitfromnorth
Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 4:29:52 PM

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All the bad things that Muslims are beaten up for isn't exclusive to their religion. Honour killings, missionaries, violences, opression of women and all that can be found on a large scale in other religions as well. If you read through the Old Testament then it's not exactly a pleasant reading from a female point of view, so if we're gonna interpret that then all the sandwich and kitchen jokes will be a reality. That's a cultural thing, so yes, it is fully possible to remove the religious aspect from a Muslim and view it as a completely cultural thing.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
LadyX
Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 4:36:03 PM

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elitfromnorth wrote:
All the bad things that Muslims are beaten up for isn't exclusive to their religion. Honour killings, missionaries, violences, opression of women and all that can be found on a large scale in other religions as well. If you read through the Old Testament then it's not exactly a pleasant reading from a female point of view, so if we're gonna interpret that then all the sandwich and kitchen jokes will be a reality. That's a cultural thing, so yes, it is fully possible to remove the religious aspect from a Muslim and view it as a completely cultural thing.


This is true, and given that they derive from the same original faith, it makes sense that a lot of the antiquated hate stuff is the same or similar. The difference is that Christians, except for small cult pockets, aren't doing these things anymore, especially not while running entire nations. Yes, I understand the narrative about powerful people doing what powerful people do, and using religion to hold everyone down, but if all the ruthless, barbaric actions they take are done in the professed name of Islam, then it seems we're going to great pains to extricate religion from culture, when the perpetrators themselves, as well as their willing followers, see them as one in the same.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 9:15:33 PM

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LadyX wrote:


This is true, and given that they derive from the same original faith, it makes sense that a lot of the antiquated hate stuff is the same or similar. The difference is that Christians, except for small cult pockets, aren't doing these things anymore, especially not while running entire nations. Yes, I understand the narrative about powerful people doing what powerful people do, and using religion to hold everyone down, but if all the ruthless, barbaric actions they take are done in the professed name of Islam, then it seems we're going to great pains to extricate religion from culture, when the perpetrators themselves, as well as their willing followers, see them as one in the same.


How does one define "culture"? In my mind, you can't differentiate one from the other. My faith is a part of me - it makes me who I am. Without it, I may as well be an automaton, moving through life with the same base needs and desires as any other animal. All that separates me from those "cult pockets" of Christians is that for the most part, my faith isn't something that I learned in some formal school. Instead, it comes from within me, based in my own life experiences and confirmed by the lessons God has taught me. He has performed certain acts with His own hand, and demonstrated them for me to witness their doing.

Despite that, I have free will, and I act on my own. Sometimes my actions are contrary to what I think of as His wishes - those are acts that I'll ave to answer for someday. If someone else's ruthless behavior is motivated by greed or lust for power or riches, then those are acts that seem fair to him. No man is ever evil in his own eyes. If he feels that it's his right to treat women in a way that we think is cruel or barbaric, then that's his way, his culture. We spend too much time getting hung up on the "all Muslims aren't bad Muslims" train, and forget to prosecute the PEOPLE that are evil. It shouldn't matter whether they're evil Muslims, evil Christians, or evil Zoroastrians... evil people need to be put where they can no longer do evil to those around them. In many cases, that means an early grave.

And you know what?

I'm okay with that.
nazhinaz
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 6:08:09 AM

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I fail to grasp the core of the discussion. Do you formulate culture is mere faith?
This is an erroneous thought. Culture is mixture of the environment we live in, the life style and the current socio-economic system that is prevalent.
Of course faith or religion is part of our value systems, but only a part. Even faith changes with the changing socio-economic and the life style.
Can any one imagine that the Saudis living in USA are the same while they are in Saudia?
Women folk of Saudis living in USA drive, go to movies & some of them enjoy wine or other drinks too; while at home they can not even even magine of that life style.
The culture of Saudis living permanently or for a time being, changes with the environment and life style arround them.
Knowlege changes the faith values too. I know for sure that Catholics become Prostestants and Methodists too.
Even in Rome one can finds hundreds, if not thousands of Atheists.The faith values changes as the knowledge base changes.
Let's go back to thousands of years, when man worshiped idols.
Their faith value changed as the new religions dawned. The knowledge, though to me imperfect then, made them change their faith values.
And it is not a war between two religions; but the two social setups, backed by knowledge and socio-economic systems.
And the more knowledgable and progressive social system and value system will be adopted by humanity at large changing itself.
One can't expect all human beings having similar faith, as diversity is the essence of life.
But unity of knoeldge will bring people to a common plateform, the human values which social system of that day will bring forth.
Don't be afraid of differences, as differences invite discussion, dialogue and greater knowledge.
elitfromnorth
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 6:08:39 AM

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LadyX wrote:


This is true, and given that they derive from the same original faith, it makes sense that a lot of the antiquated hate stuff is the same or similar. The difference is that Christians, except for small cult pockets, aren't doing these things anymore, especially not while running entire nations. Yes, I understand the narrative about powerful people doing what powerful people do, and using religion to hold everyone down, but if all the ruthless, barbaric actions they take are done in the professed name of Islam, then it seems we're going to great pains to extricate religion from culture, when the perpetrators themselves, as well as their willing followers, see them as one in the same.


So what about the witch burnings, crusades and all the shit that Christians have done up throughout history. Is that down to Christianity and the Bible, or is it the people behind it that have used the religion as an excuse to commit te deeds that are to be blamed? Remember that the Qu'uran isn't the only holy scripture you'll find in Islam. There are different directions that hold other scriptures just as holy and valid, while there are other directions that says it's all bs and only the Qu'uran that is the true book.

Personally for me the difference between culture and religion is largely that "culture" is something that people do or have in common despite beliefs. E.g. arranged marriages becomes a cultural thing because it's not exclusive to Islam, but you'll find it in any many other religions as well. Same way believing in the ressurection of Jesus becomes a Christian thing, because once you believe that Jesus rose from the dead you're Christian. I dunno if you would agree or disagree with that, Nudiepants, but that's my take on it.


"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
Buz
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 6:14:09 AM

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A few hundred million people have also been killed (exterminated) in order to institute communistic athiest states. Check out Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedung, Pol Pot and other athiests. Culture?

LadyX
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:33:12 PM

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Buz wrote:
A few hundred million people have also been killed (exterminated) in order to institute communistic athiest states. Check out Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedung, Pol Pot and other athiests. Culture?


Definitely culture, in those cases.

And overall, I think it's mostly semantics, but anything that's enforced under the pretense of faith should fall under the heading of "religious culture".

Oppressive regimes and religion can't have it both ways as we analyze them from the outside. If they declare a state religion, and base their laws and business practices on that religion, and use that religion against the people to maintain power, only to have it accepted amongst a people that remain devoted worshipers, then guess what? Religion deserves the criticism for the oppression that happens on their watch. Otherwise, why aren't we seeing a grassroots uprising from a few hundred million people, who refuse to see their faith hijacked for oppressive (and sometimes terroristic) purposes?
Milik_Redman
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:50:45 PM

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Western culture in general and American culture in particular is loud and can be seen as overbearing. We are much like the noisy neighbor living up the street having parties all night with people coming in and out 24/7

We are friendly but also tend to look at ourselves as culturally superior to others due to our freedoms.

In the view of Muslim nations we are incredibly arrogant and threaten to be a bad influence on their children and way of life. This is the heart of the problem. As with the noisy neighbor who gives your teenager a beer, at some point you wanna throw a rock through his window regardless of how nice he otherwise might be.

We should stop preaching to the middle east about freedom and just let them live happily in their dark age.
LadyX
Posted: Friday, June 01, 2012 1:08:13 PM

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Milik_The_Red wrote:


We should stop preaching to the middle east about freedom and just let them live happily in their dark age.


I agree. Except that "Western" intervention in Muslim culture is only one side of the coin. The opposite is happening elsewhere, to say nothing of the associated lunatic fringe that sets out to kill innocents.
ArtMan
Posted: Friday, June 01, 2012 1:45:17 PM

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Western scientist and engineers could put an end to any middle eastern threat by creating a new workable alternative solution to petroleum fuel. Once that is done and mass production is under way the middle east will be relegated to poverty and revert back to the stone age. The only real source of revenue coming out of there would then be Afghanistan which supplies most of the world's opium.

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http://www.lushstories.com/stories/straight-sex/passionate-danger-part-ii.aspx

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