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Guest
Posted: Sunday, July 22, 2012 7:22:01 PM

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Now maybe this topic may depend on your religion...
Do you believe that everyhing happens for a reason?
For me, I say no. Here is an example, a baby that dies, do they deserve to die? What could they have done to deserve death? Give me a good answer and you could change my mind on this topic, because I am open-minded
JessicaX
Posted: Sunday, July 22, 2012 8:16:59 PM

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Certainly some things happen for a reason. A man crashes his car head on into a mother rushing a sick child to the hospital and kills them both. The driver was drunk, the child ate too much candy at the county fair and was sick... The victims killed in Colorada this weekend are a good case in point. There were hundreds of "reasons" that these people died. They wanted to see Batman, they were shot, it was the closest theater, their friends talked them into it...

Han's question goes further than things happen for a reason, she asks about the "deserving" of fate. This is a very different angle. I don't see how anyone can say someone "deserves" anything without some sort of prejudice playing a role. None of the victims deserved it, nor did the baby Han referred to.

Everything happens for a reason. There is not, in my opinion, a grand plan or fate involved in those reasons. It is all about dumb blind luck or as my Dad loves to say, "Shit happens."





Guest
Posted: Sunday, July 22, 2012 11:27:22 PM

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JessicaX wrote:
Certainly some things happen for a reason. A man crashes his car head on into a mother rushing a sick child to the hospital and kills them both. The driver was drunk, the child ate too much candy at the county fair and was sick... The victims killed in Colorada this weekend are a good case in point. There were hundreds of "reasons" that these people died. They wanted to see Batman, they were shot, it was the closest theater, their friends talked them into it...

Han's question goes further than things happen for a reason, she asks about the "deserving" of fate. This is a very different angle. I don't see how anyone can say someone "deserves" anything without some sort of prejudice playing a role. None of the victims deserved it, nor did the baby Han referred to.

Everything happens for a reason. There is not, in my opinion, a grand plan or fate involved in those reasons. It is all about dumb blind luck or as my Dad loves to say, "Shit happens."



Very well put Jessica, now if I may ask if you are religious?
nazhinaz
Posted: Sunday, July 22, 2012 11:48:21 PM

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Han135 wrote:



Very well put Jessica, now if I may ask if you are religious?


I do agree that things do happen due to a certain cause.
Cause leads to its logical effect; we may not figure out the cause as yet, especially for the example of the death of a small kid mentioned.
Surely there is a reason; maybe her mom or dad had some infection, HIV or some congenital issues.
But maybe death, though very painful to his parenets, is or was a better opinion for the overall future development of collective life, wherein an inherent defect could lead to further complicating his own and furture generations development and growth.
We may not be able to figure out of the causes of so many ailments or causes of death in case of still born childs, as we have not yet found a cogent cause for cancer (though we now know that certain proteins suddenly start MISBEHAVING in the DNA though RNA) but the scientific persuation will surely surmount and figure out the causes of such incidents soon.
As almost a century ago, we did not know much about Tubercolossis, but we know the cause and can heal it too.
Example of a killer at Colorado, to me is out of context; he might have been mentally sick, as most killers are.
But we must persue to figure out the cause and effect relationship, as there is no other option to persue scientific investigations.
And well, For Han, I am not at all religious. Atheist.
Jack_42
Posted: Monday, July 23, 2012 1:45:38 AM

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Han135 wrote:
Now maybe this topic may depend on your religion...
Do you believe that everyhing happens for a reason?
For me, I say no. Here is an example, a baby that dies, do they deserve to die? What could they have done to deserve death? Give me a good answer and you could change my mind on this topic, because I am open-minded


[Without being pedantic I think you mean is everything pre-ordained which in my opinion would be pointless and paradoxical despite numerous examples of strange coinicidences etc I feel it is all random chance otherwise any deity or planner has a lot to answer for as per your examples.]
MMonroe
Posted: Monday, July 23, 2012 8:20:22 AM

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Im not religious at all but i cant help thinking everything happens for a reason and there could be some degree of fate going on. I think there are some things you cannot change or do anything about and those are things that are just meant to be that way, even if they are cruel or unnecessary
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, July 23, 2012 8:38:24 AM

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I grew up very religious and whenever something tragic would happen people would say something like, "it's God's plan" "God works in mysterious ways" or something similar. I never agreed with that. As human beings we have to have someone/something to blame. We try to understand things, why things do or don't happen. Somehow it makes us feel better to think there is someone upstairs pulling the strings, that a mother rushing her kid to the hospital dies because of a drunk driver who doesn't. Because the mom and child didn't deserve to die, yet the drunk driver did.

In some ways religion has allowed people to not be responsible for their own lives and actions. Or to accept that sometimes, most of the time.. .shit happens. I do believe there's a God, but I don't believe he's sitting at a desk deciding who lives and who dies and by what means that happens. God allows us to live our lives and let the chips fall as they may. No omnipotent God would decide the death of an innocent infant via the reckless actions of another. Nor would he cause the death of anyone just because "it's their time to go". Bullshit.

Do Gods or fate have an impact on our lives? Probably. They guide us and lead us where we're supposed to go, within our livable time. Not as our means of dying. Whether or not we follow where they lead is our decision.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
blazestcyr
Posted: Monday, July 23, 2012 8:42:09 AM

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without sorrow....there is no happiness

you would not know the difference

to live is to grieve at certain times
overmykneenow
Posted: Monday, July 23, 2012 10:18:02 AM

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"god's plan" and "everything happens for a reason" are just simplistic platitudes to make people feel better when something shit happens.

All it does is affirm people's dangerous belief in such bollocks as fatalism and determinism.

Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.

Why not read some stories instead

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MMonroe
Posted: Monday, July 23, 2012 11:30:41 AM

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blazestcyr wrote:
without sorrow....there is no happiness

you would not know the difference

to live is to grieve at certain times


Love this
JessicaX
Posted: Monday, July 23, 2012 12:57:41 PM

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To answer your question to me Han, I am not religious. I suspect I will end up like the famous atheist, W.C. Fields. A friend found Fields on his death bed reading the bible and said, "Bill, I thought you were an atheist - what are you doing reading the bible?" W.C. looked up at him and said, "I am looking for loopholes..."





Smoocher
Posted: Monday, July 23, 2012 3:07:39 PM

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blazestcyr wrote:
without sorrow....there is no happiness

you would not know the difference

to live is to grieve at certain times


BLAZE: I love your quote...especially 1st/3rd lines.

Thanks for writing it...Rick

http://www.lushstories.com/stories/love-stories/exit-33-trust.aspx

freakycactus
Posted: Monday, July 23, 2012 4:20:15 PM

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JessicaX wrote:
as my Dad loves to say, "Shit happens."


I wanted this on my dad's headstone, mum said no because she didn't think the grandparents would appreciate it :(
Magical_felix
Posted: Monday, July 23, 2012 4:24:53 PM

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Han135 wrote:
Now maybe this topic may depend on your religion...
Do you believe that everyhing happens for a reason?
For me, I say no. Here is an example, a baby that dies, do they deserve to die? What could they have done to deserve death? Give me a good answer and you could change my mind on this topic, because I am open-minded


Maybe the cosmos or whatever could foresee the baby being a huge fucking asshole when he grew up and like, it happened for a reason. Isn't that how it works, if you believe in that? You either believe it or not. It's faith.

Dancing_Doll
Posted: Monday, July 23, 2012 4:35:49 PM

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Magical_felix wrote:


Maybe the cosmos or whatever could foresee the baby being a huge fucking asshole when he grew up and like, it happened for a reason. Isn't that how it works, if you believe in that? You either believe it or not. It's faith.


I never thought of it that way.

Like if Hitler had gotten smallpox as a kid or fallen into a well, technically the cosmos would have been working in mankind's favour. happy8


Magical_felix
Posted: Monday, July 23, 2012 4:49:45 PM

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Dancing_Doll wrote:


I never thought of it that way.

Like if Hitler had gotten smallpox as a kid or fallen into a well, technically the cosmos would have been working in mankind's favour. happy8


Pretty much. I mean that's how would imagine it works for those that believe that everything happens for a reason. I imagine they mean that everything happens for a good reason?

Ruthie
Posted: Monday, July 23, 2012 9:11:16 PM

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I think that we place a lot more emphasis on our place in the universe than we deserve. Things happen that have nothing to do with us.
overmykneenow
Posted: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 2:19:05 AM

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Magical_felix wrote:


Pretty much. I mean that's how would imagine it works for those that believe that everything happens for a reason. I imagine they mean that everything happens for a good reason?


You can always extend this twist of logic until it comes out in your favour. Like when people say "it only takes one tree to make a thousand matches, but only takes one match to burn a thousand trees" - extending this, we can see that this destroyed forest can no longer produce one million matches, therefore saving one billion trees!

From arsonist to eco-warrior in one step.



Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.

Why not read some stories instead

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Guest
Posted: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 4:29:40 AM

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Han135 wrote:
Do you believe that everyhing happens for a reason?
Here is an example, a baby that dies, do they deserve to die? What could they have done to deserve death? Give me a good answer and you could change my mind on this topic,


As a Jew I believe in that everything happens for a reason. As a Jew I also believe in reincarnation then you can answer that question. Maybe the baby had to correct something from a previous life and the job got done. Anyway you see it if you don’t believe that everything happens for a reason you can become a manic depressive so always look on the bright side of life.
elitfromnorth
Posted: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 5:54:01 AM

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Let's just say for the sake of argument that there is a divine being, it be one god or several gods. Hell, let's just stick to the Christian god because we all have somewhat knowledge about Christianity.

The Christian God is viewed as a divine being that is so magnificent and pure that we as humans cannot understand it, i.e. we will never be able to understand God. Thus giving birth to the line of how God works in mysterious way, simply because we cannot fathom his grand plan or his intentions by killing for instance a baby, or letting the batman shooting take place. Put on a grander scale you could ask how the hell could he let Hitler take place and kill 6 million jews and start a war that either directly or indirectly caused the death of a shitload of people.

The other way to look at it is that maybe God is an absolute prick and is no better than the old Greek gods that enjoys seeing us in misery. After all, he did give us humans free will and then gives us 200 or so commandments that we need to follow. Sadistic old sod...

Or maybe this is all the devil's work and there's a constant power struggle between God and the Devil. God tries to create good things on Earth while the devil does what he can to destroy it, hence Hitler and all the other crap.

Or maybe God is retired and left the wheel over to Jesus and Jesus is having a bit of a start up problem. Maybe they're even all drunk and stoned up there in heaven! (I will never know, because with this post I'm so definetely going straight to hell I might as well back shorts and t-shirts straight away).

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
Milik_the_Red
Posted: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 6:27:52 AM

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Let's assume that there is an eternal afterlife and that we are somehow judged as being worthy along the way be a loving supreme being. One can extrapolate some of his motives for letting evil befall us by considering that this briefest period of time we call life is a learning experience and a chrysalis that transforms us into something greater then we are within the mortal coil. So, with that in mind, we can understand that the evils we see and experiance are but flickers of time spent in pain with the purpose of teaching us the value of peace and also identifying those souls that harbor ill and evil intent.
From the perspective of an immoral being, mortal life and it's suffering is insignificant when compared to the timeless existence we call the afterlife. If it were true, the afterlife would have to be considered our primary existence while the time spent on the material world is irrelevant on a cosmic scale. And thus. All of those evils we wonder about are equally irrelevant.

Surely silence can sometimes be the most eloquent of replies
- Unknown
Magical_felix
Posted: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:20:13 PM

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overmykneenow wrote:


You can always extend this twist of logic until it comes out in your favour. Like when people say "it only takes one tree to make a thousand matches, but only takes one match to burn a thousand trees" - extending this, we can see that this destroyed forest can no longer produce one million matches, therefore saving one billion trees!

From arsonist to eco-warrior in one step.



Yeah I know what you mean. It's the same type of logic applied to christianity I find. God works in mysterious ways when things don't make sense. Or if you ask why god let a child die, they can just say, well that was the devil's work. Everything happens for a reason, like what you said. "Well, we killed all the trees to save them", everything happens for a reason. Maybe sometime in our future we will kill off so many trees that we won't be able to survive but maybe a few trees will and they will eventually all grow back so you can deduce that us killing the trees happened for the very good reason of saving the planet by getting rid of the humans in the grand scheme of things. The almighty worked it out that way, so he is working mysteriously to us but from his lazy-boy in the sky it all makes sense.

FelineFantasy
Posted: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 1:55:04 PM

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I believe in it- to an extent. I've never given serious thought to my stance on this though, really. I just think that what we have in life is just a domino effect of the consequences of our actions. We have the ability to alter our stories and make what we want for the outcome of our lives a possibility and reality. A child born into a low class family can apply themselves in school and be in the upper class because of their dedication. If you want it badly enough, you can get it.

Click > here < to read my first feature story, Techno Aphrodite by Piquet!
WellMadeMale
Posted: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 5:16:51 PM

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I propose that our galactic alien overlords of The Old Establishment, long ago (think trillions, not billions) erected electronic technology so far ahead of what any civilization on Earth will ever know. This technology keeps each IS-BE (Immortal Spiritual Being) trapped within this particular solar locality of the Sagittarius arm of this rather small non-descrpt pinwheel galaxy - mankind has labeled as The Milky Way.

Let's suppose that the Earth is one of hundreds of inhabitable planets within all the arms of the Milky Way, but because this solar system is many light years (1LY = approximately 6 trillion miles) from the next closest possible inhabitable (as we think life should be (with DNA and stuff) planet ... and because we may never develop FTL galactic transportation, we imprisoned souls are relocated to this watery rock not because it is a paradise, but because it is so far from all the other much more advanced and supremely civilized Universal cultures.

DNA is god. DNA has been proven to survive the severe radiation and freezing cold nothingness - which makes up most of the visible known universe. If you're going to pray to something, it might as well be the DNA which makes up all living creatures on this planet (since we humans have as much as 90% of that same DNA in our physical bodies - as do most the other billions of lifeforms on this planet ... and most likely on all inhabited planets in this visible sector of the infinite universe).

A small minority of IS-BEs are cruel, demented sociopaths, most of the rest of us are dissidents who have railed against the leaders of those other cultures we have been culled from and then transported to this solar sytem - so that our souls can be injected into newborn human male and female babies, where we all will live on average 50 some odd years until we die and are once again recycled / reincarnated. The demented sociopaths have so far - won far more than they've not (hence perpetual wars all around the globe since we first began recording the passing of full moons and 24 hour days). What civilization would want to live anywhere close to us crazy fucks?

The electronic technology in place on the planets Mars and Venus, detects and then corrals all newly freed spirits upon the death of the physical bodies (also a form of prison) they used to rent. That spell-bounding, over-glowing white light - which some NDE'rs have often mentioned...that's their spirits bumping into the amnesia wall, which our alien overlords have installed...which wipes, nearly completely, the memories gained in the most recent physical life, which our Immortal Spirits have recorded.

We are reborn completely naive and ignorant, although some of us will remember bits and pieces of previous lives...the great majority of the 7 billion spiritual souls on this planet at any one time cannot remember a fucking thing from one of their previous dozen to 800 dozen lifetimes.

So yeah... Everything happens for a reason - as for those reasons - you'll have to ask The Old Establishment cultures (and once they have captured you and shipped your poor soul to Earth - they could give a shit).

In my opinion...You might as well believe in flying fucking monkeys, talking, tin men, lions, straw men and witches of all manner of good and evil. You would be closer, I think...to the real truth of the matrix of our reality.



Obscenity is the last refuge of an inarticulate motherfucker.
Magical_felix
Posted: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 5:55:54 PM

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ArtMan
Posted: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 6:43:45 PM

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I believe it is all random events. If not then reason is insanity.

You are invited to read Passionate Danger, Part II, a story collaboration by Kim and ArtMan.
http://www.lushstories.com/stories/straight-sex/passionate-danger-part-ii.aspx

Piquet
Posted: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 8:11:58 PM

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I agree with you Han, I don't believe things happen for a reason. What difference is there between the death of a baby through disease and the death of an ant that you accidently step on in your garden? These are random events, unfortunate events yes but events that have nothing to do with good or evil.

The traditional view that the Judeo-Christian God is all poweful and all good fails to explain why there is 'evil' in the world - if God is all good and all-powerful then he would surely remove evil from the world. He either can't do it - which means he is not all-powerful or he can but does not want to, which means he is not all good. So why do we call him 'God'?

Homer and other ancient thinkers believed that the gods were so bored with being immortal that they caused strife for mankind in order to entertain themselves. Homer says many times in The Illiad that the gods could have stopped the Trojan War but they chose not too because it was so much fun watching humans slaughter each other. I'll pay that.

'Good' and 'evil' to me are purely human concepts. What is considered evil or sinful at one time or in one society is not considered so in another. There is no good and evil in nature there is only cause and effect.

We owe it to our fellow humans, to our fellow life forms and to our planet to be good and kind and caring because, I believe, we only have each other and there is no God looking out for us. But then again I could be wrong.



http://www.lushstories.com/stories/quickie-sex/claudia-incarnatapart-vii.aspx
Magical_felix
Posted: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 9:05:32 PM

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Piquet wrote:

The traditional view that the Judeo-Christian God is all poweful and all good fails to explain why there is 'evil' in the world - if God is all good and all-powerful then he would surely remove evil from the world. He either can't do it - which means he is not all-powerful or he can but does not want to, which means he is not all good. So why do we call him 'God'?

'Good' and 'evil' to me are purely human concepts. What is considered evil or sinful at one time or in one society is not considered so in another. There is no good and evil in nature there is only cause and effect.


A religious person might tell you that good and evil were created by God too because he wanted to give humans choice. The Devil is allowed to exist because he is there to tempt us plus God cast him down to hell after the devil got a little too uppity when he was an angel. THE favored angel (God has favorites, I know I know) so he showed mercy. I am not sure if hell existed before then or not... This was way before humans were created...and earth, not sure about the universe and all of that. So the humans are just a part of the ongoing battle of good and evil. Chess pieces almost if you want to look at it from the perspective of God and the Devil. So I guess it's up to us to help God win by being good so he doesn't go all Sodom and Gomorrah on our sinning asses.

So this is why there is evil. So you Piquet, can choose to be good. THEN you can go to heaven. Or else it's too easy. Heaven has to be exclusive man, it would be a drag if just ANYbody was a VIP in heaven.

Shit, Good and Evil are the very core of Catholicism as far as I understand it. I wont speak for all Christianity.

And there is evil in nature. Ever see a cat wound a mouse only to play with it? To torture it? That cat knows what it's doing. Ask any cat owner and they will tell you that their cat is very aware of what it's doing and when it's being nice and a dick. It's no different when the fucker is torturing a mouse, that cat knows what it's doing. Little sadist fucks.

Great Apes and Lions kill cubs and baby gorillas. They just fucking kill them. Is that evil then? Or is the ape only protecting his status as alpha ape?

A human can also make an animal evil.

Some religious people will tell you that animals have no souls and humans are really the reason why earth (and I guess the universe) exist and its only a place to get us ready for the afterlife. Animals are here just for us to eat. All the ants and all of that are just the way god designed it so things all survive so we can eat. Why he made us need to eat and shit? who knows? Don't ask a priest they HATE those kind of questions.

Vaya con dios.


Piquet
Posted: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 11:31:26 PM

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I know all of that MF and as I said, I might be totally wrong. But down deep inside I just don't believe it. I don't agree that some animals are evil, they're just doing what comes naturally. It seems evil to us and just as a mouse needs to protect itself from a cat we need to protect ourselves from all those psychos out there that try to kill us. I've never even come close to working out which religion is the right one. They can't all be right. In the mean time, being a member of Lush is about as bad as I get. Good discussion topic btw.


http://www.lushstories.com/stories/quickie-sex/claudia-incarnatapart-vii.aspx
nazhinaz
Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 12:21:45 AM

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Piquet wrote:
I know all of that MF and as I said, I might be totally wrong. But down deep inside I just don't believe it. I don't agree that some animals are evil, they're just doing what comes naturally. It seems evil to us and just as a mouse needs to protect itself from a cat we need to protect ourselves from all those psychos out there that try to kill us. I've never even come close to working out which religion is the right one. They can't all be right. In the mean time, being a member of Lush is about as bad as I get. Good discussion topic btw.

Does one must pick from mythological stories as to which story appeals one as best?
Religions, all of them, have been relegated to be part of ignorance.
One may make choice amongst all.
Knowledge is light; follow light
.
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