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Poker is not gambling Options · View
lafayettemister
Posted: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 3:15:16 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/4/2010
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Location: Alabama, United States
NEW YORK (AP) — A federal judge in New York has handed a victory to poker advocates, ruling the card game isn't gambling under federal law because it's primarily a game of skill, not chance.

The decision Tuesday by Judge Jack Weinstein in Brooklyn is likely to be embraced by advocates of card games who are pushing to legalize Internet poker in the United States.

The ruling resulted in the dismissal of a federal criminal indictment against a man convicted last month of conspiring to operate an illegal underground poker club. The judge relied in his decision largely on findings by a defense expert who analyzed Internet poker games.

The judge noted the federal statute was created to combat organized crime.

Prosecutors haven't responded to phone messages seeking comment.


==============

Big deal or nothing to worry about? Will this change the entire landscape regarding poker, video poker, poker halls, casinos across the country?







When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 4:46:19 PM

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Posts: 671,586
It's not skill if you can count the cards.
LadyX
Posted: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 11:37:08 PM

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I'd say the difference between Poker and all other casino games is the same distinction that made poker rooms lawful in California for years and years before any real casinos were. That is, that in poker, it's you versus other players. Skill, wits, and luck will combine to give certain players advantage over others, but other than a percentage "rake" or tax per hand, the "house" stands to make no money off of players' losses. In every other game, including (and especially) video poker, it's Player vs. House, with the house enjoying a built in statistical advantage. Over time, the player has zero chance of winning. The cards/machines/dice/reels are stacked against the player. Yes, a card counter can beat blackjack. A dice cheat can beat craps. A flawed or vulnerable video poker or slot machine can be preyed upon by savvy players who know how to manipulate or what to look for. But all of those involve specific skills or cheating methods to overcome a set statistical advantage toward the casino.

I applaud the ruling, and agree wholeheartedly. I'd love to see poker made legal everywhere. Like sex, it's a matter of consenting participants. Casinos and their casino games are another thing.
Magical_felix
Posted: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 12:36:44 AM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 5,263
Location: California
chefkathleen wrote:
It's not skill if you can count the cards.


laughing8

Counting cards in poker?

That's black jack or 21. A casino table game.

And seriously? learning how to count cards is a skill... It's extremely difficult to learn and put into practice with hundreds of cameras and a dealer and a pit boss staring at you.

That would be a skill. A very rare one because of the difficulty of it.







I was gonna say things but ladyX covered it pretty much.

In california I can play live poker whenever I want. But oddly I can't online. When it was banned a few years ago I figured it would be back quickly. Not as fast as I thought it would but good thing that finally the ball is rolling.








Sensei
Posted: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 1:30:32 AM

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chefkathleen wrote:
It's not skill if you can count the cards.


There's no "card counting" in poker. After every hand, the deck is shuffled. Therefore, the deck has no "memory" like it does in blackjack.

The fundamental difference between poker (and its allies) and blackjack (and other, similar casino games) is that in poker, the house has no interest in the outcome of any particular hand. That is, they have no interest on who wins the pot. They will rake the pot the same way regardless. In the other games, by contrast, the players don't vie against each other. At a blackjack table, each player plays a separate game against the dealer. And, of course, the house has an edge in the odds that favors them over the long term.

You cannot be a successful long term blackjack player. To the extent you can succeed, it is in being able to ride short term aberrations in the long term odds.

You can be a successful poker player. Doing so means being better than the rest of the people with whom you play. How are you better? Poker can be described very simply. At any given moment, you are faced with a comparison between the pot odds and the odds that your hand will prevail in the end. If the pot odds exceed the hand odds, you call the bet. If they do not, you fold. In doing so, your decisions have a positive Expected Value. Repeat that exact same decision point thousands of times, and you will profit over the long term. You will do so because your opponent failed to offer pot odds that are not profitable (that is, his decisions were negative EV).

Now, determining the pot odds is straightforward. With a pot with $20 in it, and a $5 bet in front of you, you are expected to call $5 to win $25. That's 5:1 pot odds. If your hand has a better than 20% chance of winning, you must call. Where the skill comes in is in determining what the true odds are that your hand is best. If you are on a draw, and your draw is to the nuts, then that's straightforward, but it's rarely that simple.

Oh, and counting cards at blackjack is no longer helpful. The casinos now have been deploying continuous shuffle machines, which allows them to play blackjack with a single deck, but destroy that deck's memory. The cards come out of a fake shoe, and as every hand finishes they're deposited in a hopper in the top. They can then potentially be redealt in the very next hand.


My novel, The Society, is available now in the Kindle Store: http://www.amazon.com/The-Society-ebook/dp/B00BPF9U2I
blazestcyr
Posted: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 10:37:41 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/19/2011
Posts: 737
Location: where bugs die
if u lose money on something...it is gambling...

just like if you choose to smoke pot it is a drug

both ...are choices....YOUR choice

me i would rather have a great pair of shoes than to piss my money away on something i can't use again

but alas...hi my name is Blaze & i am a shoe addict....
Magical_felix
Posted: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 12:38:20 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 5,263
Location: California
blazestcyr wrote:
if u lose money on something...it is gambling...



So then everything is gambling then. If I buy a fucking ham sandwich, am I gambling that it might be a shitty sandwich?

Obviously you are missing the point...

You can lose 200 bucks on tuesday, another 100 on wednesday, win 300 on thursday, win 700 on friday, loose 200 on saturday, win 400 on sunday and on and on... I trust that you can do that simple math...I hope. Now if you are this type of player... Then in the long run you aren't losing a dime. You are winning money. You could argue that you could be making more money spending your time doing something else but that is another topic.

When you put your money in the middle with better than 50% chance of winning you will eventually win. Unless you are a bad player and scare the money you can win away. That is the difference. If you are truly great and know how to maximize your pots with good hands while winning small ones or not losing a lot with your bad hands, you will win. If you are a stupid person though, your odds at winning at poker in the long run become 0%. That's why they made slot machines...To take those people's money.



CleverFox
Posted: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 6:06:56 PM

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Location: United States
If gambling is illegal because somebody says it is immoral, then what the hell is the stock market?
Guest
Posted: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 6:33:26 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 671,586
If you take the dictionary meaning of gambling to be betting on an uncertain outcome, then it's technically gambling. Sure there may be skill involved but it's still uncertain as to whether your opponent is going to be more skillful than yourself. If people want to gamble, it's their choice and if they really want to gamble, they'll find a way, legal or not.
Buz
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 8:28:03 PM

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I'm all for poker and all other gambling to be made legal in my home state. In fact I've written a few letters to the governor and my congressional reps about it. To no avail at this point though. (I'd especially love for horse racing & dog racing to be made legal for betting.)

But c'mon...poker is fucking gambling if you bet money on it. Judges? They think they are non-elected legislators.

Poker wouldn't be any damn fun unless you wager something of value. Hell I wager all the time, on the golf course, I bet on football games, basketball, MMA, boxing, etc.. I won a lot of cash on the NCAA basketball tournament. I've drag raced on my motorcycle for cash. It was all illegal but great fun!

lafayettemister
Posted: Friday, August 24, 2012 7:33:26 AM

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I wonder how many poker players are in Gambler's Anonymous and what their opinion is? Legal ramifications? If it's not gambling, will insurance not cover treatment for addiction to poker? I do agree that playing poker takes a lot of skill, but if you put money on your skill level to beat another player's skill level, that's gambling. I'm sure if you asked Jimmie Johnson, Tony Stewart, Dick Trickle if it involves skill to race a stock car they'd say it is all skill. But they cannot bet/gamble on races, even if they're betting on themselves. The best pitcher in baseball can't bet on his team to win when he pitches. The outcome of any game is never certain, placing money on that outcome is gambling.

If poker halls, video poker, and the like start popping up all over the country and is more easily acceptable to the masses, you can bet there will be a spike in bankruptcies, foreclosures, and stuff like that. Few people will have the necessary skill to not go broke if they get addicted.

Whether or not gambling/poker should be legal or not is a different ball of wax.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Magical_felix
Posted: Friday, August 24, 2012 9:30:12 AM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 5,263
Location: California
lafayettemister wrote:
I wonder how many poker players are in Gambler's Anonymous and what their opinion is? Legal ramifications? If it's not gambling, will insurance not cover treatment for addiction to poker? I do agree that playing poker takes a lot of skill, but if you put money on your skill level to beat another player's skill level, that's gambling. I'm sure if you asked Jimmie Johnson, Tony Stewart, Dick Trickle if it involves skill to race a stock car they'd say it is all skill. But they cannot bet/gamble on races, even if they're betting on themselves. The best pitcher in baseball can't bet on his team to win when he pitches. The outcome of any game is never certain, placing money on that outcome is gambling.

If poker halls, video poker, and the like start popping up all over the country and is more easily acceptable to the masses, you can bet there will be a spike in bankruptcies, foreclosures, and stuff like that. Few people will have the necessary skill to not go broke if they get addicted.

Whether or not gambling/poker should be legal or not is a different ball of wax.


I agree that it is a bit weird that they are actually saying it is NOT gambling. Because it is. I mean you are putting down money with the expectation of "winning" more money. Maybe they should call it something else, maybe something more like skilled gambling or something.

Poker like a sport or any other skill requires practice to get better. You can invest money in books, an instructor or just logging in thousands of hands to learn the ropes. You will probably lose money at first as you are learning to play and getting the blood in your veins to turn to ice water. I don't see this early learning period where you are spending money to get the tools you need to play poker at a level where you are able to have fun because you are not just loosing as too different than other learning periods in other activities. investment in a stock car is similar i think. Investors or however they get the funding are basically gambling on a driver. The payback isn't a big pile of actual money but if the driver wins, all the investors get their logos displayed a whole lot more. The amount of money they invested doesn't change wether the driver wins or not so you can kinda say that they are gambling. They are like picking a horse, throwing some money behind it and hoping it wins to get their logo out their more to create awareness with consumers and eventually make more money than they started with. That's gambling, just not stripped down in a more pure form like poker.

No other gambling game that is played in casino requires practice or understanding to win. They require luck. Every other game requires luck to win. Video poker, three card poker are not really poker and I dont think those are the type of games they are talking about. Those are table games/slot machine style luck games and arent found in actual poker halls, just casinos. They just call them poker but the odds are more similar to pai gow and black jack. you have a 46-49% chance of winning with those games no matter what you do.

I suppose if insurance companies cover shopping addictions they should cover poker addictions. I'm not sure if they do. I doubt it. The thing about addictions though is that the vices themselves don't create addicts. Addicts find vices to abuse. Take poker away and something else will consume them. I doubt "bankruptcies, foreclosures, and stuff like that" went down when they outlawed online poker or live poker in certain areas. Would be interesting to have stats on that. Wouldn't know where to look though.

Something interesting... if you keep records of your winnings and losses in poker you can write off your losses because they can tax your winnings. Like if one year your head gets out of the game and you lose big time you can write it off.










Dick Trickle.



lafayettemister
Posted: Friday, August 24, 2012 10:14:30 AM

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Joined: 10/4/2010
Posts: 6,432
Location: Alabama, United States
Magical_felix wrote:


I agree that it is a bit weird that they are actually saying it is NOT gambling. Because it is. I mean you are putting down money with the expectation of "winning" more money. Maybe they should call it something else, maybe something more like skilled gambling or something.

Poker like a sport or any other skill requires practice to get better. You can invest money in books, an instructor or just logging in thousands of hands to learn the ropes. You will probably lose money at first as you are learning to play and getting the blood in your veins to turn to ice water. I don't see this early learning period where you are spending money to get the tools you need to play poker at a level where you are able to have fun because you are not just loosing as too different than other learning periods in other activities. investment in a stock car is similar i think. Investors or however they get the funding are basically gambling on a driver. The payback isn't a big pile of actual money but if the driver wins, all the investors get their logos displayed a whole lot more. The amount of money they invested doesn't change wether the driver wins or not so you can kinda say that they are gambling. They are like picking a horse, throwing some money behind it and hoping it wins to get their logo out their more to create awareness with consumers and eventually make more money than they started with. That's gambling, just not stripped down in a more pure form like poker.

No other gambling game that is played in casino requires practice or understanding to win. They require luck. Every other game requires luck to win. Video poker, three card poker are not really poker and I dont think those are the type of games they are talking about. Those are table games/slot machine style luck games and arent found in actual poker halls, just casinos. They just call them poker but the odds are more similar to pai gow and black jack. you have a 46-49% chance of winning with those games no matter what you do.

I suppose if insurance companies cover shopping addictions they should cover poker addictions. I'm not sure if they do. I doubt it. The thing about addictions though is that the vices themselves don't create addicts. Addicts find vices to abuse. Take poker away and something else will consume them. I doubt "bankruptcies, foreclosures, and stuff like that" went down when they outlawed online poker or live poker in certain areas. Would be interesting to have stats on that. Wouldn't know where to look though.

Something interesting... if you keep records of your winnings and losses in poker you can write off your losses because they can tax your winnings. Like if one year your head gets out of the game and you lose big time you can write it off.










Dick Trickle.


There is no doubt that you can lower the risks of losing money on poker by spending money and learning how to be a better poker player. Investing in a stock car is a great business tool. The advertising return is worth the money since NASCAR is the routinely the most highly attended sporting events each year. But betting on the outcome of the race is different, but I understand your point. It's still a gamble. But there's "legal" gambling and there's "illegal" gambling. Those lines get blurred quite often.

Poker does require skill. Lots of it. But there is still a level of degree of luck involved. I'm sure you've played cards, whether it's poker or hearts or solitare, and sometimes the cards just will not fall your way. If you play a little rinky dink Texas Hold 'Em night at the local Elk's Lodge and pay the $50 buy in and get shitty cards the first 5 hands, you may be out the $50 before you even get to ply your skill. Even the best player's in the world have off days/weekends/tournaments. It happens. For a skilled player it's less a gamble than video poker or roulette. For the average weekend casino warrior, 'bout the same.

Some insurance does cover gambling addiction, it's viewed the same as alcohol or drugs. Not sure if shopping addiction is covered, maybe? I read a little about it and I have an old friend/co-worker that went through inpatient treatment for gambling. He literally lost his house betting on horses. And you're right, an addictive personality will find something to abuse.







When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
elitfromnorth
Posted: Friday, August 24, 2012 10:20:57 AM

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If putting money on that your skills will be better than other people's skills then we're all gambling. Taking a degree in a market with tight job application; you're putting not just the schoolmoney but also years of your life that your skills in the subject is better than your fellow students.

Making a business; you're putting money on that you can provide a service that is more comptetative than other companies.

When a footballclub pays 25 million quid + wages then they're gambling on the fact that the skills they aquired will be enough for them win.

Gambling is chance, where you might as well flip a coin. There's no skill involved in blackjack(unless you count cards which is not considered legal by the casinos), roulette and so forth. The fucking lottery is gambling.

Poker is all about being able to read your opponents, calculating probability and fucking with their heads. There's a difference between that and rolling the dice.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
lafayettemister
Posted: Friday, August 24, 2012 10:27:30 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/4/2010
Posts: 6,432
Location: Alabama, United States
Here are a couple links that show different views on gambling/casinos and bankrupcy/crime. I admit i'm too lazy to read through all the mumbo jumbo, but there does appear to be a correlation between the opening of a casino and the negative effects it has on the surrounding community. The most common statistic I saw was that in communities where there are casinos and/or legalized gambling, the bankrupcy rate is about 10% higher than average.

Link1

Link 2

Link 3

Of course, casinos also bring in lots of jobs so the positive may outweigh the negative. Not something really to worry about with poker at the moment. I haven't seen any new poker halls open up since the ruling.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Magical_felix
Posted: Friday, August 24, 2012 10:30:17 AM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 5,263
Location: California
lafayettemister wrote:


There is no doubt that you can lower the risks of losing money on poker by spending money and learning how to be a better poker player. Investing in a stock car is a great business tool. The advertising return is worth the money since NASCAR is the routinely the most highly attended sporting events each year. But betting on the outcome of the race is different, but I understand your point. It's still a gamble. But there's "legal" gambling and there's "illegal" gambling. Those lines get blurred quite often.

Poker does require skill. Lots of it. But there is still a level of degree of luck involved. I'm sure you've played cards, whether it's poker or hearts or solitare, and sometimes the cards just will not fall your way. If you play a little rinky dink Texas Hold 'Em night at the local Elk's Lodge and pay the $50 buy in and get shitty cards the first 5 hands, you may be out the $50 before you even get to ply your skill. Even the best player's in the world have off days/weekends/tournaments. It happens. For a skilled player it's less a gamble than video poker or roulette. For the average weekend casino warrior, 'bout the same.

Some insurance does cover gambling addiction, it's viewed the same as alcohol or drugs. Not sure if shopping addiction is covered, maybe? I read a little about it and I have an old friend/co-worker that went through inpatient treatment for gambling. He literally lost his house betting on horses. And you're right, an addictive personality will find something to abuse.



And this kids is what makes the difference between a winning player and a losing player. What makes the difference between poker and casino gambling.

Anyone that has played real poker and I think some are confused here about what type of poker is in question. A game where the dealer is involved in the actual play and outcome of the hand and not just there to collect antes and hand out the cards is not actual poker... Okay that said. This goes out to the people that have actually played real poker, that is Razz, 7-card, holdem, omaha, and omaha hi-low. These are the games played in the actual poker room. When you guys played these games... How many times did you actually see the winning players hand? And especially in tournament poker when players fold to a bet like 95% of the time BEFORE the flop. Now if most of the time you never see the winning players cards... Does it matter what that player had? No... it matters what the folding player had.. The winning player knew the folding player was scared to lose, wanting to wait for the next hand, nervous, or you sensed that he sensed you had a good hand. Thats what poker is, its not the cards. That's why its different. What other casino game do you not see the winning players hand?

Of course in TV they show the hands like a a full house against a straight flush that got lucky at the end because that makes for good television. What they dont show is that the guy that lost by getting unlucky against the straight flush probably has been running the table betting people out. He is not showing his cards so the players are really confused... This gets the players to play at you with weak hands and weak draws. If the player with the flush draw didnt get really lucky then the other player would win even more. BUT since he is a skilled player he has a chip advantage that is big enough that it doesnt matter if the flush got lucky. When you can build a lead with you shit hands and you lead is so big.. they have to get lucky more than once. Then you become really hard to beat. That's the essence of poker. Poker is NOT about getting a four of a kind. Video poker is... But thats a slot machine with a poker theme.



Magical_felix
Posted: Friday, August 24, 2012 10:32:07 AM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 5,263
Location: California
elitfromnorth wrote:
If putting money on that your skills will be better than other people's skills then we're all gambling. Taking a degree in a market with tight job application; you're putting not just the schoolmoney but also years of your life that your skills in the subject is better than your fellow students.

Making a business; you're putting money on that you can provide a service that is more comptetative than other companies.

When a footballclub pays 25 million quid + wages then they're gambling on the fact that the skills they aquired will be enough for them win.

Gambling is chance, where you might as well flip a coin. There's no skill involved in blackjack(unless you count cards which is not considered legal by the casinos), roulette and so forth. The fucking lottery is gambling.

Poker is all about being able to read your opponents, calculating probability and fucking with their heads. There's a difference between that and rolling the dice.


Totally. Everything is gambling when you really think about it. Like when you try to see the whole forest.



DirtyMartini
Posted: Friday, August 24, 2012 10:43:39 AM

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lafayettemister wrote:


Big deal or nothing to worry about? Will this change the entire landscape regarding poker, video poker, poker halls, casinos across the country?



I think in most states these days you're not more than a two hour drive from some casino where you can play poker legally...I know that's certainly the case in my part of the country...

And Lady Xuani said it well...I agree...

Btw, I once sat 27 hours at the same poker table in Atlantic City...not sure I should admit that or not, but I'm told it's not even close to being a record down there...or particularly unusual for that matter...


You know you want it, you know you need it bad...get it now on Amazon.com...
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Magical_felix
Posted: Friday, August 24, 2012 10:50:26 AM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 5,263
Location: California
DirtyMartini wrote:



Btw, I once sat 27 hours at the same poker table in Atlantic City...not sure I should admit that or not, but I'm told it's not even close to being a record down there...or particularly unusual for that matter...


Were you winning or were you stuck? And for how much c'mon, lush needs some good poker stories.



lafayettemister
Posted: Friday, August 24, 2012 10:53:10 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/4/2010
Posts: 6,432
Location: Alabama, United States
Magical_felix wrote:


And this kids is what makes the difference between a winning player and a losing player. What makes the difference between poker and casino gambling.

Anyone that has played real poker and I think some are confused here about what type of poker is in question. A game where the dealer is involved in the actual play and outcome of the hand and not just there to collect antes and hand out the cards is not actual poker... Okay that said. This goes out to the people that have actually played real poker, that is Razz, 7-card, holdem, omaha, and omaha hi-low. These are the games played in the actual poker room. When you guys played these games... How many times did you actually see the winning players hand? And especially in tournament poker when players fold to a bet like 95% of the time BEFORE the flop. Now if most of the time you never see the winning players cards... Does it matter what that player had? No... it matters what the folding player had.. The winning player knew the folding player was scared to lose, wanting to wait for the next hand, nervous, or you sensed that he sensed you had a good hand. Thats what poker is, its not the cards. That's why its different. What other casino game do you not see the winning players hand?

Of course in TV they show the hands like a a full house against a straight flush that got lucky at the end because that makes for good television. What they dont show is that the guy that lost by getting unlucky against the straight flush probably has been running the table betting people out. He is not showing his cards so the players are really confused... This gets the players to play at you with weak hands and weak draws. If the player with the flush draw didnt get really lucky then the other player would win even more. BUT since he is a skilled player he has a chip advantage that is big enough that it doesnt matter if the flush got lucky. When you can build a lead with you shit hands and you lead is so big.. they have to get lucky more than once. Then you become really hard to beat. That's the essence of poker. Poker is NOT about getting a four of a kind. Video poker is... But thats a slot machine with a poker theme.


Absolutely correct. But the person with the folding hand gambled and lost. This is thinking way down the road. Poker isn't gambling... more poker establishments open... more people THINK they know how to play poker... more people play poker and lose to someone who DOES know how to play poker. For the average Joe, who goes in with a couple hundred bucks and is relying on pure luck and the knowledge he gained watching WSOP on ESPN, THAT's a gamble.

People are lazy. Not everyone is going to play and study the game of poker to learn all the nuances to become proficient at it. For someone like me, I'll get together with some guys, pay my buy in and have fun. If I win, great. If I lose, it's ok because I paid to have a good time with my buddies. No different than paying for a round of golf. Unfortunately, some people will go to the casino to play poker with their rent or utilities money and lose it. That's why it's a gamble. But, if a person is dumb enough to gamble away their rent money they'd probably blow it on something else if you took away poker.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
lafayettemister
Posted: Friday, August 24, 2012 10:56:14 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/4/2010
Posts: 6,432
Location: Alabama, United States
DirtyMartini wrote:


I think in most states these days you're not more than a two hour drive from some casino where you can play poker legally...I know that's certainly the case in my part of the country...

And Lady Xuani said it well...I agree...

Btw, I once sat 27 hours at the same poker table in Atlantic City...not sure I should admit that or not, but I'm told it's not even close to being a record down there...or particularly unusual for that matter...


That's very true. There's two within 15 minutes of me right now. And another 4 within an hour's drive. But if poker falls outside of the gambling restrictions, you can bet some businessman will jump on the bandwagon and little poker joints will pop up in every community. Maybe, maybe not.

27 hours? You're hardcore.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Magical_felix
Posted: Friday, August 24, 2012 11:10:23 AM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 5,263
Location: California
lafayettemister wrote:


Absolutely correct. But the person person with the folding hand gambled and lost. This is thinking way down the road. Poker isn't gambling... more poker establishments open... more people THINK they know how to play poker... more people play poker and lose to someone who DOES know how to play poker. For the average Joe, who goes in with a couple hundred bucks and is relying on pure luck and the knowledge he gained watching WSOP on ESPN, THAT's a gamble.

People are lazy. Not everyone is going to play and study the game of poker to learn all the nuances to become proficient at it. For someone like me, I'll get together with some guys, pay my buy in and have fun. If I win, great. If I lose, it's ok because I paid to have a good time with my buddies. No different than paying for a round of golf. Unfortunately, some people will go to the casino to play poker with their rent or utilities money and lose it. That's why it's a gamble. But, if a person is dumb enough to gamble away their rent money they'd probably blow it on something else if you took away poker.


True the person with the folding hand gambled and lost. But he could be a winning player too... Just not at against the guy that seems to have worked the flow of the pots his way that night. Could have been a table with all sharks too? I know what you are saying that for the average joe that doesn't know how to play, he needs go all in to see all the cards and get lucky and win. In that instance, that's gambling like flipping a coin gambling. But the average joe, like you say may take 200 bucks to a table to have fun and get a few free drinks and win or lose he had a good time. No harm done. From my experience, most cash game tables are 7 average joes, 2 real players and some wildcard maniac... or a woman. women should really learn how to play poker more. Poker is about reading people... When 9 out of 10 people are men at the table. Advantage: Woman.

Quote:
But, if a person is dumb enough to gamble away their rent money they'd probably blow it on something else if you took away poker.


So true... Always someone that has to fuck it up for the rest of us. Almost in any situation someone will be stupid enough to mess things up for everyone.

Quote:
...who goes in with a couple hundred bucks and is relying on pure luck and the knowledge he gained watching WSOP on ESPN, THAT's a gamble.


I do want to add that the coverage of the WSOP is pretty good about talking about pot odds, the same winning players, how its a skill game, how you shouldn't be a weekend warrior about it, etc. I mean the really talk about it a lot. I am one for lots of rules and laws because I think thats what makes America great, is our laws and rules. But at some point... Dumb people are just dumb people and like you said, they will burn their money some other way.

Fuck I want to play some holdem now.








Ruthie
Posted: Friday, August 24, 2012 11:48:46 AM

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Poker isn't gambling for me. It's giving my money to other people.
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Saturday, August 25, 2012 9:38:27 PM

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Magical_felix wrote:



Fuck I want to play some holdem now.



Me too... I love poker. I always win. I have this method... at first glance nobody ever thinks I'm a skilled player. Until I take all their money.
The dumb blonde act has always worked well for me with poker. :)

I'm not into gambling when it comes to chance or luck (eg. 21, roulette etc.). That's why I don't see poker as true gambling.

sprite
Posted: Saturday, August 25, 2012 9:41:09 PM

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Dancing_Doll wrote:


Me too... I love poker. I always win. I have this method... at first glance nobody ever thinks I'm a skilled player. Until I take all their money.
The dumb blonde act has always worked well for me with poker. :)

I'm not into gambling when it comes to chance or luck (eg. 21, roulette etc.). That's why I don't see poker as true gambling.


that reminds me... i want my underwear back. oh, yeah, right, a "friendly little game of strip poker, no, really, i've never played before, are Aces high or low?" my ass.

Live, love, laugh.
VanGogh
Posted: Saturday, August 25, 2012 9:42:16 PM

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my personal opinion with the devastation that can occur with gambling .... if you lay down one cent, it's gambling.

forget the "skilled player" .... every gambler thinks they are a skilled amazing player. (oh god, could I tell you stories!)

One penny on the line, it's gambling.

Quote:
Gambling disease affects everyone that has a disposition to compulsive and addictive behaviors, whether you are a Bingo Player, casino gambler, or have sports betting problems the solutions are the same.

All gambling produces adrenalin ( the fight or flight drug )and endorphins, self produced by your own bodies reaction to the risk taken. The body in turn becomes tolerant and familiar with the drug as it is repeated Therefore compulsive gamblers need to experience a greater risk - higher bet - to get the same high.

Nalmephene and other drugs may have some short term effect to slow down a gambling disorder but it is simply a replacement drug for the adrenalin. Root causes need to be addressed for long term success.


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WellMadeMale
Posted: Saturday, August 25, 2012 9:54:02 PM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,462
Location: Cakeland, United States
PersonalAssistant wrote:
my personal opinion with the devastation that can occur with gambling .... if you lay down one cent, it's gambling.

forget the "skilled player" .... every gambler thinks they are a skilled amazing player. (oh god, could I tell you stories!)

One penny on the line, it's gambling.



I'll play ya - for items of clothing, PA.

For coin? Nope.. I get all skeezy feeling when gambling for money, for some odd reason.

If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Saturday, August 25, 2012 10:23:21 PM

Rank: Alpha Blonde
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Gambling in itself is not addictive.

A compulsive/addictive personality will seek out anything that gives them the 'rush' of endorphins - whether it's gambling, sex, food, drugs, shopping, alcohol, online-porn... and the list goes on. It doesn't mean that any of these things are inherently bad or need to be banned and/or limited for all people. These things are fun - they make you happy, provide pleasure, they give you that rush of excitement. Most people can handle it... but some people can't.

I have always been of the mindset - treat the underlying disorder, don't blame or vilify the object-of-addiction. One can easily be swapped out for another with someone that has an addictive personality. You force a compulsive gambler to stop and not treat the disorder, and they will just turn to the next vice that will give them a similar 'rush'. The majority of people that partake of any of the things I mentioned above will not instantly form overwhelming/intense addictions to them. They are enjoyed for what they are, and then life goes on. If you have an addictive/compulsive personality that's left unchecked, then anything that provides pleasure has the potential to turn into an unhealthy addiction.

WellMadeMale
Posted: Saturday, August 25, 2012 11:19:33 PM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,462
Location: Cakeland, United States
Dancing_Doll wrote:
Gambling in itself is not addictive.



Neither is cocaine, sex, bungy jumping, riding dirt-bikes, dodging trains, publishing extremely naughty erotic stories or anything else which fires off serotonin in excess levels, within your brain.

Have another cookie. Make it a ginger-snap.

If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
She
Posted: Saturday, August 25, 2012 11:56:52 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 3/24/2010
Posts: 2,547
Location: Europe
Buz wrote:
I'm all for poker and all other gambling to be made legal in my home state. In fact I've written a few letters to the governor and my congressional reps about it. To no avail at this point though. (I'd especially love for horse racing & dog racing to be made legal for betting.)

But c'mon...poker is fucking gambling if you bet money on it. Judges? They think they are non-elected legislators.

Poker wouldn't be any damn fun unless you wager something of value. Hell I wager all the time, on the golf course, I bet on football games, basketball, MMA, boxing, etc.. I won a lot of cash on the NCAA basketball tournament. I've drag raced on my motorcycle for cash. It was all illegal but great fun!



I know it's fun to watch races, right! the whole fuss around it, is event, not just race itself. But did you know that racing dogs (Greyhound, ) are being really unfortunate. Among thousands that are bread for racing, few are chosen, among those few not all are being lucky (fast) enough to live their 1,5-5 year, they are killed. And the fast ones, after thy retire, yup, killed again, after not more than 5 years of living. Thousands per year.


http://www.ehow.com/info_10012830_happens-racing-dogs-can-longer-race.html



edit: And pretty much it's all being said, poker is gambling.
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