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Should creationism be taught in schools? Options · View
Jacknife
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:38:44 AM

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How about we actually discuss the merits of creationism against a scientific methodology.

Firstly if anyone wishes to respond to this rather long post can we first establish that reality is the way that it is. Either there is a god or there isn't. Ok assuming there is no God then the 1.1 billion Atheists/Agnostics are right then we die and become worm food when we are put in the ground.

If we assume that there is a God/Gods, for the sake of arguement, that created the world then how would this benefit the most people. Well without getting into the denomination argument there are about 2.1 Billion Christians at present with the current world population approaching 7 billion people. So if all human life ended on earth tomorrow you would get a minimum 4.9 billion souls burning in hell/falling from heaven/whatever happens after you die. That of course assumes that the God isn't bothered about denominations and all the Christians had exactly the right view point on homosexuality, abortion, sex before marriage, killing your fellow man, etc to allow them to get into heaven in the first place.

This is a fairly poor success rate considering all religions seem to want spread their word to all men and for them to see the light and come to the true God, but lets move on....

Now I don't want to label anyone in accurately, so if anyone reading this would like to put forward a different creation story then by all means please do so. But as the Abrahamic religions are a huge chunk of the world populations and essentially share the same story I will use their creation myth

Now the most popular form of creationism that wants to be taught in schools is what is called Young Earth creationism. its adherents state that God created the world in six, 24 hour literal days. No metaphors used, no nothing. All animals are also created with the wonderful diversity that we see in the current situations. The Genesis account of the event is as accurate as if you read a sports report from a football game from someone who was there last week. This was meant to happen sometime between 5700 and 10000 years ago.

As a final act God created Man and woman, in their present form. No evolution neccesary, as they are now and completely indistinguishable from your man in the street, (if they were wearing more than fig leaves of course).

The fall of man occurs, fruits, serpents, yadah yadah yadah, banishment from Eden, Human population begins to increase some how from Adam and Eve, time goes by and we reach the point of Noah. Noah is informed by God that his creation hasn't turned out as well as planned and he is going to destroy all the men and animals apart from 8 people of Noah's family and various animal types including 7 pairs of clean animals and then pairs of other animals in order to repopulate the various species we see now.

The flood comes creating fossils that we now see and dig up. Time goes by.....Present day, the original two animals spread about and multiply creating the current world animal populations with small variations creating what we would see as small differences within species like the 1100 species of bat we can now find for example.

Now if someone wishs to dispute or add further detail to this please do so (if I missed out anything someone considers important i do apologies), or put forward another theory that may exist like geocentrism or some other form of creationism, I would enjoy listening to those too.

Refutation of said theory will come when people have had the chance to challenge said account or put forward their own theory


Guest
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 9:14:06 AM

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hello1 I like you Jacknife
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 10:29:09 AM

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Anyway, to overcome my joy reading your post I truly have nothing to add to it but just to say my point of view why creationism should not be thought in school.

Beside that is completely outrages fact that there are no facts about God and His great work of creating this beautiful world it is completely contraditory to teach new generations 1o-12 courses all based on facts/science/tehnology and one based on nothing. Oh my bad, it is based on faith, imagination, believing.. all of this is very important for math, languages, history, physics right? Than we should teach our new generations in schools about God, about Santa Clause, about fairy tales and back those stories up with some good colouring book.. and after college those people will run for Goverment, they will be leading in Federal Bank and keep our world economy really high.
or should we teach them somethink that we can back up that knowledge with some facts. But certanly we cannot do it both because it is contradictory and one exclude the other and we are left with zero.


Butterfly
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 10:41:37 AM

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I feel the same as some others here, Creationism should be left out of the public school system curriculum. I would think there would be way too many personal opinions and ideas thrown around (by the teachers of it and by the students being 'taught' it) in that particular course, which would lead to debates and controversy, OH NOO, in public school! Seriously though, the theory of evolution, on the other hand, has been taught as part of science class for years upon years and it's not hypothesis it's theory, which by scientific standards is basically pretty much proven factual stuff, right? Science was never one of my stronger suits as far as courses of study, so lol.

Man, this reminds me of a time in science class when I was in middle school, umm 7th or 8th grade, if I remember correctly, and it was a small town (population about 850 back then) school; this really has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but it was a messed up situation that shouldn't have happened. So, us younguns are standing around at the back of the classroom by the beakers, and chemicals and bunsen burners waiting to do an experiment, the teacher decides he has to leave the room all of a sudden; leaving us there to our own devices...freaking brilliant huh?

So, this girl decides to get a little glass dish and put some chemical in it, some of us are saying "umm you better leave that stuff alone," others are like "light it up!!". So, she has a lighter in her pocket...mhmm, I bet she smoked outside the building too!! Anyway, she proceeds to light the stuff in the bowl, it catches and now it's just a bowl of flaming hot liquid chemical. Somebody bumped her arm and it splashed onto another student, little flames burning into her sweater, everyone starts yelling and stuff, one of the kids grabs the fire blanket and beats the front of her with it. Here enters the teacher...with this to say/ask; "What in the HELL are you damn kids doing!!!" Anyway, everything turned out fine, the girls skin didn't get burned, thank goodness. That teacher wasn't there a few weeks later either :). The girl with the lighter, suspended. Just felt like sharing a little story from my childhood geek.

By the way, I'm in agreement completely with Chef and Sprite; monkeys and gorillas and orangutans; all are very intelligent creatures.
SadBi-Virgin
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 10:46:52 AM

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Great apes are more intelligent then many people of the world. and have more humanity than half of the worlds population.
Rontre
Posted: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:38:25 AM

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Separation of church & state. No person or institution has the right to force or try to make you believe in what I believe to be theories. Should they choose to do so let the parents decide what or what not to teach their children about religion. There is nothing wrong with taking your children to church to help bolster their moral upbringing; but when they are of age of majority then I believe the decision should be up to them
Guest
Posted: Thursday, November 18, 2010 5:53:48 AM

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I pretty much agree with Rontre, if anything, it should be up to the parents. If anyone has the right of choosing for children, it's them. I also don't think that the populace would agree to let creationism be taught in school. I'm sure most Americans here remember the fuss that some parents from other religions or no religions made about their children saying the pledge of allegiance in school. The reason they fussed about it isn't because they're not American or not patriots, but because of one little phrase in the pledge: "One nation, under God, ..." My folks never had a problem with it, but then, they are both catholic. I don't agree with stopping the saying of the Pledge just because some parents made a fuss, but I can't imagine they would take Creationism laying down. Because while Christianity is the biggest religion in the US, there are many others as well that make up a not insignificant chunk. Besides, I think that teaching two different versions of history would be confusing to students, unless you taught it to them at a high school level at least.

Myself, I would not be opposed to a general religious course that explored the main religions over the course of 9 or 18 weeks. (For example: Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.) I think it would be very educational to students and would help improve religious tolerance in this country. I'm not sure that would go over well with everyone, but I think it's the most fair and even-handed to do, especially considering the emphasis on Christianity in this country.
LadyX
Posted: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 3:56:36 PM

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and for all of us who are beyond school age, yet still want to soak up all that Creationist knowledge, we can visit the creationist theme park and "museum" in Kentucky, where- as it turns out- we learn that Dragons, Dinosaurs, and Unicorns traveled on Noah's Ark with the giraffes and all the other animals.

Now I realize that some of you might be skeptical of teaching the existence of Unicorns and Dragons (to say nothing of an Ark that carried them and all the other animals around while the whole earth flooded), but it's time to bow down to the facts, people. Chew on this:

The biblical unicorn was a real animal, not an imaginary creature. ... The absence of a unicorn in the modern world should not cause us to doubt its past existence. (Think of the dodo bird. It does not exist today, but we do not doubt that it existed in the past.). ... To think of the biblical unicorn as a fantasy animal is to demean God’s Word, which is true in every detail.

Well I guess that settles that. LOL I'm so glad they'll teach these concepts to our future children in science classes alongside equally questionable notions like cell mitosis, photosynthesis, and a wierd theory about analysis known as the "scientific method." Pfft, science.



I wonder how cranky T-Rex got, being stuck on that wooden ship for so long.
SweetPenny
Posted: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:25:31 PM

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LadyX wrote:
and for all of us who are beyond school age, yet still want to soak up all that Creationist knowledge, we can visit the creationist theme park and "museum" in Kentucky, where- as it turns out- we learn that Dragons, Dinosaurs, and Unicorns traveled on Noah's Ark with the giraffes and all the other animals.

Now I realize that some of you might be skeptical of teaching the existence of Unicorns and Dragons (to say nothing of an Ark that carried them and all the other animals around while the whole earth flooded), but it's time to bow down to the facts, people. Chew on this:

The biblical unicorn was a real animal, not an imaginary creature. ... The absence of a unicorn in the modern world should not cause us to doubt its past existence. (Think of the dodo bird. It does not exist today, but we do not doubt that it existed in the past.). ... To think of the biblical unicorn as a fantasy animal is to demean God’s Word, which is true in every detail.


Welcome back, Cassidy!!!
LadyX
Posted: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:27:07 PM

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SweetPenny wrote:
LadyX wrote:
and for all of us who are beyond school age, yet still want to soak up all that Creationist knowledge, we can visit the creationist theme park and "museum" in Kentucky, where- as it turns out- we learn that Dragons, Dinosaurs, and Unicorns traveled on Noah's Ark with the giraffes and all the other animals.

Now I realize that some of you might be skeptical of teaching the existence of Unicorns and Dragons (to say nothing of an Ark that carried them and all the other animals around while the whole earth flooded), but it's time to bow down to the facts, people. Chew on this:

The biblical unicorn was a real animal, not an imaginary creature. ... The absence of a unicorn in the modern world should not cause us to doubt its past existence. (Think of the dodo bird. It does not exist today, but we do not doubt that it existed in the past.). ... To think of the biblical unicorn as a fantasy animal is to demean God’s Word, which is true in every detail.


Welcome back, Cassidy!!!


LMAO! :D
Guest
Posted: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:44:16 PM

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Creationism isn't really necessity, but there is little to no harm in teaching it. Even if your religious views do not agree with how creationism is taught, to not make an attempt to understand or learn about it is to be closed minded and in turn you make yourself look arrogant and ignorant. Those that have the strongest comfort in their beliefs are the ones that have no problem learning how the other side thinks. I don't quite understand why knowledge or beliefs should not be shared, so long as it isn't taught in a misleading or preachy way. You can teach the subject by telling what the theories are, the people who believe in them, the origins, the evidence pro and against, and still maintain neutrality within the teacher. If you don't believe in any of the theories other than God being the sole maker, then good for you. Different people believe different things, that is how the world works, get over it and respect other people's views. Isn't the the ideal thing to be the one who can shun the belief without crude insults or spite? Being open minded and respectful is the best advice I can give anyone.
If schools wont teach it, go and learn about it yourself in your free time. That way nobody feels butthurt in the end.
Guest
Posted: Thursday, December 30, 2010 7:03:43 PM

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Quote:
There are many (including Sarah Palin, I believe) that want creationism taught in science classes, which is significantly different from teaching religion as a seperate course. I'm all for religion classes (in the same way that we might offer classes in Greek mythology) but would we include them in science curriculum?


No, no and oh hell to the no..
If you want to be touched by god, learn about god or be near to a church where you can pray to god, go to a catholic school.
Kids should go to school to think, not to learn. Anyone can be a teacher and any foolish government can set a cirriculum. You learn more from the kids you go to school with and the good teachers that live and work in the grey area and steer clear of the black and white bullshit.
Guest
Posted: Thursday, December 30, 2010 7:38:09 PM

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All this worry and fuss about where we came from and not enough about where we go from here. :( It makes no difference but all the stories we tell to try to explain the irrevelant should be in some folk class maybe.
Rembacher
Posted: Thursday, December 30, 2010 7:47:56 PM

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analqueen79 wrote:
Kids should go to school to think, not to learn. Anyone can be a teacher and any foolish government can set a cirriculum. You learn more from the kids you go to school with and the good teachers that live and work in the grey area and steer clear of the black and white bullshit.


Wow. I do believe that children need to be taught to think, not just to memorize facts, but to say that anyone can be a teacher is horribly inaccurate, and extremely offensive to those who do have a special talent for passing on their skills and knowledge. I've encountered too many people who disprove your thought during my trek through academia to ever think that anyone can teach. Good teachers are hard to find. And setting a working curriculum, one that effectively ensures that the students learn what they need to know, is extremely difficult.

Guest
Posted: Thursday, December 30, 2010 8:07:50 PM

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Quote:
Wow. I do believe that children need to be taught to think, not just to memorize facts, but to say that anyone can be a teacher is horribly inaccurate, and extremely offensive to those who do have a special talent for passing on their skills and knowledge. I've encountered too many people who disprove your thought during my trek through academia to ever think that anyone can teach. Good teachers are hard to find. And setting a working curriculum, one that effectively ensures that the students learn what they need to know, is extremely difficult.


Not inacurate down here, not at all. 4-6 yrs at uni, depending what age you want to teach, you are spoon fed the requirements, taught to *teach* like a robot, little to no interaction and classroom social skills. I have met too many teachers that have been happy to read from a text book and encourage little to no discussion. The students sit there like zombies and retain nothing because its all robotic and uninteresting.

As for curriculum, it should at least be set geographically. Not just a blanket set of criteria that every student in any one state has to know.
We sit the H.S.C here, Higher School Certificate. Its the last yr of school, you are 17 or 18 when you sit the H.S.C and the results of that one big exam determines what your future holds. If you want to do anything that requires further academic training you have to get good results in the H.S.C.
The last 2 yrs running there have been questions in certain subjects (I believe religion and maths) that pertain to subject matter that was not taught. That is terrible, these kids spend 13 yrs of their lives at school, 5 days a week, 7 hrs a day, and everything that matters depends on their exam and the curriculum and the test questions do not match.

Thats why most of us can only ever recall 1 or 2 teachers that we really liked. In 13 yrs of school, I had 1 teacher that taught the way I believe teachers should teach.
Guest
Posted: Thursday, December 30, 2010 8:31:35 PM

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shi_squared wrote:
All this worry and fuss about where we came from and not enough about where we go from here. :( It makes no difference but all the stories we tell to try to explain the irrevelant should be in some folk class maybe.
Yeah, its not about where you're from, its about where you're at and where you go from there. Wisely said Shi :)
Guest
Posted: Sunday, January 2, 2011 6:28:00 PM

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I work in the Canadian school system and this really isn't an issue. The truth is we teach very specific, government written curriculum and follow strict prescribed learning outcomes. The majority of my students come from either a Christian, Muslim or Jewish background. All 3 of these major world religion have the same prescribed story. Schools are not a system of black and white. Nor do I want to teach my students black/white thinking. It is not about right/wrong or me telling my students they are idiots if they believe one or the other. My goal is to teach NOT to indoctrinate. It is only when you present MULTIPLE views that students can engage in independent thought. And so the solution we have found at our school is to teach the government regulated PLO's and have mixed groups of students complete group projects and present to the class their findings. The following family guy clip to start off the unit. Always good to start with laughter right!
Guest
Posted: Sunday, January 2, 2011 7:06:40 PM

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1. Separation of Church and State, referred to by Jefferson and Adams, and the fucking 10 commandments of the US (i.e. The Bill of Rights, not the bill of O'Riley you facist republican aholes.)

First Amendment (you religious a-holes): Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Creationism is but a subversive means to introduce religion (a.k.a. Christianity: note: not Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism or any other "ism", merely, and strategically, Chritianism).

2. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

That is inscribed on the Statue of Liberty. We have forgotten how to take in those teaming multitudes that want to be free, of oppression, hunger, life without liberty, and those who seek to be free to worship as they wish. Even though, that is precisely the reason why people first colonized the U.S.

3. Simply, we do not need to teach our children that wrath, death, and end times will come teaming down on the multitudes due to an angry god, nor that we cannot scientifically prove that any of the prehistoric specimens found on earth date to the same time that any of of forefathers walked the same soil. Our children are confused enough as it is.
Rembacher
Posted: Sunday, January 2, 2011 7:30:13 PM

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eviotis wrote:
1. Separation of Church and State, referred to by Jefferson and Adams, and the fucking 10 commandments of the US (i.e. The Bill of Rights, not the bill of O'Riley you facist republican aholes.)

First Amendment (you religious a-holes): Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Creationism is but a subversive means to introduce religion (a.k.a. Christianity: note: not Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism or any other "ism", merely, and strategically, Chritianism).

2. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

That is inscribed on the Statue of Liberty. We have forgotten how to take in those teaming multitudes that want to be free, of oppression, hunger, life without liberty, and those who seek to be free to worship as they wish. Even though, that is precisely the reason why people first colonized the U.S.

3. Simply, we do not need to teach our children that wrath, death, and end times will come teaming down on the multitudes due to an angry god, nor that we cannot scientifically prove that any of the prehistoric specimens found on earth date to the same time that any of of forefathers walked the same soil. Our children are confused enough as it is.


1. Teaching a variety of ideas, whether in science or as some form of cultural class does not mix the church and the state. It merely aids the students in understanding the beliefs of cultures different than their own. Not sure how it works in the US, but part of my high school education in Canada were teachings on a variety of religions including the taoism and confucianism, which I thoroughly enjoyed. Also, while I have never studied Islam, I'm sure it would have a very similar creation story to christianity as they worship the same god.

2. What does this have to do with creationism being taught in school? Other than you seem to be one of the people you mention who have no tolerance for religious people.
eviotis wrote:
First Amendment (you religious a-holes)


3. I think teaching how one culture, or preferably many cultures view the beginning of the world is not going to make anyone more confused. If you give the children enough information, and also teach them how to think they will make up their own minds. They will learn far more this way than if someone tries to teach them by making them memorize a bunch of information without truly understanding it. I'm not saying that they will never be confused, but if you actually teach them to think, they will know how to seek more information so they can limit their confusion.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, January 2, 2011 9:53:00 PM

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It's not about culture, or ideals. And, religion is a far cry from spirituality.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, January 2, 2011 10:07:45 PM

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P.S.

Creationism is proposed to be taught in schools in the U.S. The main proponent of this "teaching" is due to the fact that the state of Texass sells the most books in the U.S. and thus would be the strategic point which creationists would pinpoint to indoctrinate such "teachings".

It has EVERYTHING to do with this. Read some more about the melting pot, the freedom of religion which some past, and present have come to the U.S. for.

"that is precisely the reason why people first colonized the U.S."

Don't edit me to fulfill your points.
LadyX
Posted: Sunday, January 2, 2011 10:10:40 PM

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eviotis wrote:

Don't edit me to fulfill your points.


You mean like this? evil4

Somebody get Micho a stiff drink and some sexy company, stat!
Guest
Posted: Sunday, January 2, 2011 10:15:16 PM

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Dear Lady, your new name nickname is Nightingale. Thank you.
BearInATopHat
Posted: Monday, January 3, 2011 6:46:11 PM

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Ok... think on this. CHUCK NORRIS supports Creationism and supports Bibles in school. Do you REALLY want to go against HIM?!? Chuck Norris can beat up the whole world.

The bear in the top hat!


Here's my facebook if anyone wants it: http://www.facebook.com/kungfujimmyd
Guest
Posted: Monday, January 3, 2011 7:02:00 PM

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Superman wears Chuck Norris pyjamas to bed bwahaha

Manofwar, I work in the adult industry (retail/management) and did you know that I sell a giant black dildo, I guess its about 45cms long and 15 cms round, with veins and testicles and a suction base incase you need to suction it onto the kitchen bench and guess what its called? The Man-of-War. :)

Hijack over bootyshake
Guest
Posted: Monday, January 10, 2011 4:24:23 PM

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I don't know if this part of the equation has been addressed yet, and not about to go through all the responses to find out (lazy me), but what about the kids?

I had a brief discussion today with a female co-worker (agnostic) about her daughter coming home and feeling bad since the question posed by other kids was, "What do you believe in?" Her husband is an atheist, and they both tried to explain to her that it was her choice to choose what she believes in, and that there are many different religions. Pretty heavy for a 10 year old.

My advice, tell her that no matter what religion, faith, or belief, the simple idiom is "treat others as they would treat you", and that the love and respect for your fellow human beings is the simplest point to make. If those asking, "what do you believe in", make fun of you, then the love and respect they extol in their own belief is not being practiced because they have made her feel bad, and is antithetical to what they try to preach.

Do we need to give youth more prejudice with which to exert on their classmates than is already at hand?
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 3:19:45 PM

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Absolutely not... If you want to learn about that goto Sunday school. How dare they try to push that crap on the kids. There is no fact behind creationism.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 7:17:16 PM

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eviotis wrote:
I don't know if this part of the equation has been addressed yet, and not about to go through all the responses to find out (lazy me), but what about the kids?

I had a brief discussion today with a female co-worker (agnostic) about her daughter coming home and feeling bad since the question posed by other kids was, "What do you believe in?" Her husband is an atheist, and they both tried to explain to her that it was her choice to choose what she believes in, and that there are many different religions. Pretty heavy for a 10 year old.

My advice, tell her that no matter what religion, faith, or belief, the simple idiom is "treat others as they would treat you", and that the love and respect for your fellow human beings is the simplest point to make. If those asking, "what do you believe in", make fun of you, then the love and respect they extol in their own belief is not being practiced because they have made her feel bad, and is antithetical to what they try to preach.

Do we need to give youth more prejudice with which to exert on their classmates than is already at hand?


Kids need controversy in their lives. It teaches them not what to think, but how to think. It teaches them that there may be more than one correct answer to any given question. The parents who don't want their kids exposed to any other ideas than their own are actually failing to teach their children a valuable lesson.
Guest
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 7:46:58 PM

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Your point?

Are you saying creationism should be taught in schools?
whorecrux
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 7:54:48 PM

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MrNudiePants wrote:
eviotis wrote:
I don't know if this part of the equation has been addressed yet, and not about to go through all the responses to find out (lazy me), but what about the kids?

I had a brief discussion today with a female co-worker (agnostic) about her daughter coming home and feeling bad since the question posed by other kids was, "What do you believe in?" Her husband is an atheist, and they both tried to explain to her that it was her choice to choose what she believes in, and that there are many different religions. Pretty heavy for a 10 year old.

My advice, tell her that no matter what religion, faith, or belief, the simple idiom is "treat others as they would treat you", and that the love and respect for your fellow human beings is the simplest point to make. If those asking, "what do you believe in", make fun of you, then the love and respect they extol in their own belief is not being practiced because they have made her feel bad, and is antithetical to what they try to preach.

Do we need to give youth more prejudice with which to exert on their classmates than is already at hand?


Kids need controversy in their lives. It teaches them not what to think, but how to think. It teaches them that there may be more than one correct answer to any given question. The parents who don't want their kids exposed to any other ideas than their own are actually failing to teach their children a valuable lesson.


You both basically stole my answers.

I wish that I was your coronary artery so that I could always be wrapped around your heart. --- ♥
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