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Should violent criminals be given false identities? Options · View
Guest
Posted: Saturday, July 24, 2010 4:39:02 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 781,118
Just as an example, I am currently reading the story of Jon Venables, one of the perpetrators of a crime which horrified the UK when he and fellow murderer Robert Thompson ~ both ten year old's ~ abducted two year old James Bulger from a shopping centre in Bootle, Merseyside, and then tortured James and murdered him.

They were given life sentences for the 1993 crime but were released on licence in 2001.

Both were given new identities at a huge cost to the taxpayers and made the subject of some of the most sophisticated protection measures and legal restrictions ever thrown around a murderer.

But yesterday, Jon Venables now 27, has been sentenced for a further 2 years for downloading child pornography (photos ranged from 2 year old children to videos of a 8 year old girl being raped) and he pretended to be a woman prepared to sell her eight-year-old daughter for sex to a fellow pedophile.

He could be eligible for release in one year, armed with yet another identity at a cost of £250,000 (approx. $US381,000 or $AU430,000) to taxpayers.

My question is... Should taxpayers pay for violent criminals to be given false identities to protect them or should they be 'thrown to the wolves' and deal with the public outcry and face the consequences of their violent crimes?

HannahBirdy
Posted: Saturday, July 24, 2010 6:51:26 AM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 3/22/2008
Posts: 58
Location: United Kingdom
How can it even cost that much? O-O

And neither. For crimes such as that, they should stay in jail for the rest of their lives (Ya know, where a life scentence meant your entine. damn. life). And not our cushy UK jails where 'human rights' allow them play stations and that. Ye olde jails of hard back breaking labour where they earn their keep, instead of living off taxpayers money again. I was watching a programme and I'm fairly certain 98% of one of America's products (I think it might be license plates, but that feel ignoranty and clique) comes from it's prisoners.

But for awful crimes, where they've been scentenced to life, they should stay there. For life. Until they die. That's what a life sentence is. D< Not 18 years and then we'll let you skip out on your merry way.

However, I'm not sure about hiding their identity. For example if Jon Venables had come out of prison a truly repentant man (since he was only 10 when he did what he did) and felt guilty and awful - surely his own guilt would be punishement enough... That was if he was repentant but he's clearly not. When he gets back out, not that he should, he shouldn't be protected. He should be monitered, in a very serious way. And if people find out who he is, not that i support vigilantism, maybe having the shit beaten out of him might knock some sense into him. That also being said, when do these new identities come into place? Before or after prison? 'Cos I know that not all people in prison take kindly to certain stuff, so people may get the stuffing beaten out of them in there, before they even have a chance to rehabilitate in the outside world.





Dancing_Doll
Posted: Saturday, July 24, 2010 8:04:58 AM

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I remember reading about this crime many years ago, and for those that are familiar with it, it's one that really stays with you. It was at the highest level of brutality, and the shock and emotionality surrounding this case is not likely to go away. People will remember their names.

However... the real fury now will be that Venables gets only 2 years for his most recent crime? Should his past not be taken into account in this case to clearly show that this man is not rehabilitated and is still a danger to society? I think that's where the real outrage should come in. I do think that a person's prior criminal history should factor in and when it comes to sex crimes I am more in favour of a zero-tolerance policy. The potential to reoffend is so high when it comes sex crimes and crimes against children. I don't think this man should be allowed onto the street ever again, let alone at the cost of having a 'new identity'.

In Canada there was a case of similar level of emotional outcry and notoriety by the public with a serial killer named Karla Homolka. She had death threats upon her release, and the media actually followed her every move as she tried to 'reintegrate' back into society... regularly reporting what she was doing, and where she was working. A request (by her) to change her name 1 year later was denied. A year after that she left the country to move to the Antilles to lead a 'normal life'. So no, I don't think the onus should be on taxpayers to ensure that these criminals can lead a prosperous and safe life after leaving prison. The onus should be on them.

My issue with this is that with sex registries being commonplace (in the US, you can look up mugshots of any registered sex offender and their address just by a few clicks on the internet)... why is so much effort being made to protect the identities of those that have committed the most extreme sex crimes? In my opinion, the public has the right to know if these people are living in their neighbourhood, especially since (as Venables has proven), there is a high potential to reoffend.


Magical_felix
Posted: Saturday, July 24, 2010 8:42:37 AM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 7,657
Location: California
This made me feel sick.

Rembacher
Posted: Saturday, July 24, 2010 9:04:59 AM

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Joined: 10/16/2008
Posts: 1,107
I'm of two minds about this. The public should have a right to know if there is a sexual offender or convicted murderer in their neighbourhood. But at the same time, if the person has paid his or her debt to society, then they should be allowed to re-integrate into society.

I know it can be hard to tell the difference between someone who is likely to re-offend, and someone who just truly made a mistake. I've seen a community protest at a house in Niagara Falls when they thought an offender was living there. It would make it very hard for someone to be a part of the community. In some cases I think those types of protests cause the offender to seek out the only people who will accept them, the criminal element.
LadyX
Posted: Saturday, July 24, 2010 10:12:15 AM

Rank: Artistic Tart
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Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,804
SweetBitch wrote:


My question is... Should taxpayers pay for violent criminals to be given false identities to protect them or should they be 'thrown to the wolves' and deal with the public outcry and face the consequences of their violent crimes?



Everything about that story is so wrong that I don't even know where to start. But to the question at hand- no, there's no possible way that any criminal- except for those in a witness protection program- should ever be given a new identity. Having to live with your own crimes also means that you don't get the easy out of just being given a new identity so you don't have to present your shame to the world.

Now, I know that being a kid means that the legalities are different- being tried as a child also means that you get the chance to be psychologically evaluated and then released, as opposed to spending the rest of his life in prison. Or at least I hope that's the case in this crime, for him to be out of prison just a few years later. I mean, I know that here in the US they let violent criminals out long before their sentences are scheduled to last, but 8 years total after committing a crime that would get some people the death penalty? Is that common in whatever country Mercyside is in?

If you commit the crime, then having that crime on your permanent record is part of your debt to society, not just prison and/or probation. And if being tried as a child means that your record gets wiped clean eventually, then that should be plenty. A new name is going a little too far with it, in my opinion. That family won't get their child back so why the f**k should that person get a whole new fresh start? Some people have their records wiped clean as part of their settlement, but for everyone else- that's the consequence of getting convicted of a felony.

Guest
Posted: Sunday, July 25, 2010 9:02:50 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 781,118
Totally agree with DancingDoll that THEY should be the ones to provide themselves with a new identity and LadyXicon_smile

Today I read another article by James Bulger's Mother on the Venables case, which I found rather intriguing, because I would honestly feel the same way if I was a family member or the victim of the crime.

James Bulger’s mother Denise Fergus wrote:
It angers Denise that the image of Venables the child – 4ft 7in, wide-eyed, wearing his tracksuit top – remains unchallenged. It torments her that she now knows his voice but cannot see his face.

She said: ‘It’s gone past protection. It’s like they’re conspiring with him now. He’s untouchable. I always knew I’d be going through this again. I just didn’t think it would be so soon. People have an image of Venables as a child, but he’s not. He’s a grown man.’

Denise is not alone in wondering why. She says: ‘Why should he be protected now?


and most scary of all, because it could be true....

James Bulger’s mother Denise Fergus wrote:
'He’s not a child, he’s an adult criminal who’s been handed chance after chance.

‘He knows what I look like, but if he walked past me in the street I wouldn’t know him. He could have befriended me on Facebook. He has so many ways into our lives because he’s been allowed that


Poor woman has no chance of closure as she would always be wondering if that male standing next to her (or even serving her) at the checkout could be Jon.

I would also like to find out if they have to declare that they have a criminal history when they apply for employment, rental applications, etc. or would they be exempt from that in case it leads to their true identy?
xCindyx3
Posted: Sunday, July 25, 2010 9:57:38 PM

Rank: Active Ink Slinger

Joined: 8/11/2009
Posts: 25
Location: Canada
Jebru wrote:
I'm of two minds about this. The public should have a right to know if there is a sexual offender or convicted murderer in their neighbourhood. But at the same time, if the person has paid his or her debt to society, then they should be allowed to re-integrate into society.

I know it can be hard to tell the difference between someone who is likely to re-offend, and someone who just truly made a mistake. I've seen a community protest at a house in Niagara Falls when they thought an offender was living there. It would make it very hard for someone to be a part of the community. In some cases I think those types of protests cause the offender to seek out the only people who will accept them, the criminal element.


Interesting icon_smile I can see both sides but I agree with DancingDoll and LadyX.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, July 25, 2010 10:18:46 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 781,118
SweetBitch wrote:


My question is... Should taxpayers pay for violent criminals to be given false identities to protect them or should they be 'thrown to the wolves' and deal with the public outcry and face the consequences of their violent crimes?





HELL FUCKING NO!!!!! It's bad enough taxpayers have to pay to keep their sorry asses locked up in the first place. Now we gotta pay to change their identity cause of their stupidity in the first place? I don't think so.
rxtales
Posted: Sunday, July 25, 2010 10:20:57 PM

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Posts: 2,589
Location: Newcastle, United Kingdom
So even if you commit a crime as a child, do you think they should not be given the chance to reintegrate into society as an adult who has "paid their debt to society"?
Guest
Posted: Sunday, July 25, 2010 11:05:20 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
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Hell no dont protect them, they are asking for it throw them to the wolves they do not deserve forgiveness or protection
Jillicious
Posted: Sunday, July 25, 2010 11:49:26 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/28/2009
Posts: 1,293
They don't need the government to issue false identities. They just need an internet connection and some social network to visit. They can make their own identity.

Thousands of user submitted stories removed from the site. You are nothing without your users or their freely submitted stories.
mercianknight
Posted: Monday, July 26, 2010 6:07:36 AM

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Joined: 8/11/2009
Posts: 2,027
Location: whispering conspiratorially in your ear, Bermuda
If a Life sentance actually meant LIFE, then we wouldn't be discussing how hard-earned tax-payer monies are being wasted on scum of the earth. There was no credible defense for what those lads did to James Bulger, not now and not then - they are just plain evil.

Forget the liberal physco-babble and save both the tax-payers money and the poor Coppers being cajoled into protecting them and let's have the scum bags new identities so that we can throw a good old fashioned street party. I'll even bring a neck-tie for the troubled dear(s) to wear!!! cussing

"Whoa, lady, I only speak two languages, English and bad English." - Korben Dallas, from The Fifth Element

"If history repeats itself, and the unexpected always happens, how incapable must man be of learning from experience?" - George Bernard Shaw
Guest
Posted: Monday, July 26, 2010 8:14:18 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 781,118
This particular story (Jon Venables) just gets more depressing everyday.

Quote:
After the taxpayers paid for his new identity, it emerged today that Jon Venables repeatedly bragged he was one of James Bulger's killers in drunken and drug-crazed conversations with friends more than a year before his child porn shame.

The 27-year-old even confessed his real identity to an ex-lover and fellow workers at a pizza restaurant.


Why even bother, when they are going to oust themselves?
MrNudiePants
Posted: Monday, July 26, 2010 7:02:40 PM

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Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,226
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rxtales wrote:
So even if you commit a crime as a child, do you think they should not be given the chance to reintegrate into society as an adult who has "paid their debt to society"?


If their crimes were such that they're safe to re-enter society, why would they need a new, false identity? And if their crimes were of sufficient vileness that they're not safe to re-enter society under their real names, then how can they ever be safe enough to re-enter society? There's a reason why we shoot mad dogs.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Monday, July 26, 2010 7:06:52 PM

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Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,226
Location: United States
LadyX wrote:


If you commit the crime, then having that crime on your permanent record is part of your debt to society, not just prison and/or probation. And if being tried as a child means that your record gets wiped clean eventually, then that should be plenty. A new name is going a little too far with it, in my opinion. That family won't get their child back so why the f**k should that person get a whole new fresh start? Some people have their records wiped clean as part of their settlement, but for everyone else- that's the consequence of getting convicted of a felony.



No matter what, there are people who will have the need to know that person's real identity. Police detectives, parole officers, judicial officials, prosecutors. Everybody in a position of trust should know this guy's face by sight, from the local police to the day care teachers . Just in case they ever need to.
Woman
Posted: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:12:50 PM

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I firmly beleive that if you commit a crime, you have lost your rights as a free citizen of the country in which you reside in. You commit the crime, pay the price and not a reduced sentence.

One should not be let off the hook by the government changing their names, change their identities so they can be returned back into society where they committed their violent crimes. No matter how sorry they are. They committed a violent act not only against other people, but society as a whole.

Now if, the person who committed the crime wants to change their identity, it should not be the government that pays for it. It should be the family of the person or the person themselves. Only AFTER they have paid their debt to society. Their full debt. Not a partial debt.

But then I think about, when a person commits a crime, generally that person knows they are committing a crime right? They know that raping a child is wrong and against the law. They know that breaking and entering, harming the occupants are wrong and against the law. They know that mugging and beating the person within an inch of their lives is wrong and against the law. They know that entering a school with a gun and shooting people is wrong and against the law. So why should they be allowed off the hook?

I am not saying an eye for an eye. Or the punishment should fit the bill. I am just saying that it should be about time that the punishment that were dished out be an actual punishment. What happened to the time when people feared breaking the law???? Or it was shameful to be in prison?? Or why should tax payers and society pay for ones upkeep when they break the law? Why not have their own personal finances pay for it? Or their families pay for it?

I do not know about the rest of you, my parents raised me to respect the law and respect the laws that governed society. If I even remotely got close to that line of breaking the law or societies laws, I would be spanked with my fathers ridiculously thick leather police belt (glad they went to velcro!!!!!) or the huge wooden spoon that we used (it was massive!!!! About an inch thick along the length of the handle it was more of a bloody ore than a spoon I tell you!!!!!) I got good at toe stepping the line, and knowing how far I could go before my arse started to tingle and I would think thoughts like.... ok. No more. Time to stop or else I am going to get it. For I knew what would happen if I broke the rules. And that has followed me into adulthood as well.

Taking this as an example, we know what is right and what is wrong. We know the law. We know what happens when we break the law. In better times, we called them consequences for ones actions. In today's world... hell... I cannot even finish this sentence.

I've had an enormous amount of violence done to my person when I was just a teenager. He had done what he did to me to a few other young girls. It is pathetic when you go to report it to the officers in charge and even before you open your mouth, the thought that runs through your head is "what's the point? He gets smacked on the wrists, and his life continues with no interruptions." I learnt to forgive him. But that does not mean I don't wish that things were different in the world, and punishments were actual punishments and not flights of fancy that society ends up paying for.

I could go on and on about this, but in the end I think it is a big problem all over the world, were words like "consequences" and "responsibility" are no more. We have become a bleeding heart world.

A quick example of what I mean...

I told my students homework had to be handed in before 14:30 one afternoon. And if they handed it after that time, it would be late, and I will happily give them a zero (zero being in my opinion a pretty number and all). I asked them if they understood, they said yes. I asked them to translate my words, they did and it was properly translated.

A group of boys sauntered into class, late mind you, and then tried to give me their homework, after being late, interrupting my lesson, and demanding that I take it and mark it.

I refused.

They then attempted to turn on the water works, tell me that their fathers would beat them if I gave them a zero.

Again, I refused.

Then they tried to guilt me even further that I want to see them fail.

To which I beamed at them and said, "It is not I that wants you to fail. It is you that wants you to fail."

Yup. I was pulled into the Dean's office for that one, with their parents who could not understand why I refused to mark their papers and grade them. I pulled out my marking pen, took their papers, and gave them a mark of "ZERO" with the comment of "Late, next time be on time".

As I said, I feel that those two words mean nothing anymore.

Living life and enjoying life are two different things... just need to figure out how to do both at the same time to live it right!

Woman... GO FLY A KITE!!!!! Take a slideshow walk with me on a walk through the parks of Inner Mongolia, China. Then enjoy the tale of a very traditional day in the life of a white Woman in China.
Magical_felix
Posted: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:00:49 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 7,657
Location: California
I'm all for punishing violent criminals too but...

I don't know about the prisons in china woman. But in the USA we have a big prison overpopulation problem because we hand out jail time for everything. And no the solution isn't letting violent criminals go because Americans don't want that. They just voted against decriminalizing marijuana.

So what would be your solution? They're already using the cafeterias to house hundreds of criminals where the guards have an almost impossible task of trying to keep order. Where should we put the guys after we stop reducing sentences?



Woman
Posted: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:22:38 PM

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Joined: 11/21/2009
Posts: 675
Location: Stopping the war 'tween Harold and Kumar
Magical_felix wrote:
I'm all for punishing violent criminals too but...

I don't know about the prisons in china woman. But in the USA we have a big prison overpopulation problem because we hand out jail time for everything. And no the solution isn't letting violent criminals go because Americans don't want that. They just voted against decriminalizing marijuana.

So what would be your solution? They're already using the cafeterias to house hundreds of criminals where the guards have an almost impossible task of trying to keep order. Where should we put the guys after we stop reducing sentences?



To be honest, I have never been asked that question before. I do have some thoughts of them, as everyone does. However; I will have to get back to you on them once I have thought them through more.

But I can tell you this... Violence is on the rise in people under the age of twenty-four here in China. Usually petty crimes, more school yard fighting, rape is becoming more common, doctors no longer tell parents that their single daughters have received an abortion (come on now!!! Abortions are on sale this month!!! 124RMB down from 400RMB at No1 Hospital!!!! As advertised on the side of a bus), children no longer respect authority figures or fear consequences or know much of responsibility. This is very commonly seen in the bigger cities (Beijing, Tianjin, Shanghai etc..), but I have seen a big difference since when I first arrived in 2002 and today. Granted, it may have always been this way, only fresh off the boat from the west and the vast difference between Canada and here might have something to do with it as well.

Prisons here... I shall get back to you on that another time when I have not just eaten. I've been to two Chinese prisons,

While I am away pondering this question for answers, would you mind me asking you theses questions, "why are people breaking the law? Why does it seem violence is on the rise? Or is it one the rise- with the increase in population, maybe the numbers are increasing as population increases?" For I feel it is people do not respect the society in which they are living, laugh at the thought of consequences and have no cares about taking responsibility for their actions- is my simple answer. I do know, that the way I view the world is not usually how most people see it. So if I may be curious and request an answer?

Living life and enjoying life are two different things... just need to figure out how to do both at the same time to live it right!

Woman... GO FLY A KITE!!!!! Take a slideshow walk with me on a walk through the parks of Inner Mongolia, China. Then enjoy the tale of a very traditional day in the life of a white Woman in China.
Magical_felix
Posted: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:34:11 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 7,657
Location: California
I'm about to have dinner myself so I'll have to get back to you too:) too heady to not give it some thought.

And I made a typo in my last post I meant to say Americans don't want NON-violent criminals released.

Magical_felix
Posted: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:04:40 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 7,657
Location: California
Woman wrote:
Magical_felix wrote:
I'm all for punishing violent criminals too but...

I don't know about the prisons in china woman. But in the USA we have a big prison overpopulation problem because we hand out jail time for everything. And no the solution isn't letting violent criminals go because Americans don't want that. They just voted against decriminalizing marijuana.

So what would be your solution? They're already using the cafeterias to house hundreds of criminals where the guards have an almost impossible task of trying to keep order. Where should we put the guys after we stop reducing sentences?



To be honest, I have never been asked that question before. I do have some thoughts of them, as everyone does. However; I will have to get back to you on them once I have thought them through more.

But I can tell you this... Violence is on the rise in people under the age of twenty-four here in China. Usually petty crimes, more school yard fighting, rape is becoming more common, doctors no longer tell parents that their single daughters have received an abortion (come on now!!! Abortions are on sale this month!!! 124RMB down from 400RMB at No1 Hospital!!!! As advertised on the side of a bus), children no longer respect authority figures or fear consequences or know much of responsibility. This is very commonly seen in the bigger cities (Beijing, Tianjin, Shanghai etc..), but I have seen a big difference since when I first arrived in 2002 and today. Granted, it may have always been this way, only fresh off the boat from the west and the vast difference between Canada and here might have something to do with it as well.

Prisons here... I shall get back to you on that another time when I have not just eaten. I've been to two Chinese prisons,

While I am away pondering this question for answers, would you mind me asking you theses questions, "why are people breaking the law? Why does it seem violence is on the rise? Or is it one the rise- with the increase in population, maybe the numbers are increasing as population increases?" For I feel it is people do not respect the society in which they are living, laugh at the thought of consequences and have no cares about taking responsibility for their actions- is my simple answer. I do know, that the way I view the world is not usually how most people see it. So if I may be curious and request an answer?


Okay, I can only give you my thoughts why I think youth violence is increasing in my part of the world. Right now In California it's really hard to get a job that pays much more than 12 dollars an hour. And I'm talking about the managers in places like retail stores, restaurants, bookstores etc are making 12. This person might make 700 dollars every two weeks depending on the hours they get. The cost of living is high here too so it is impossible to support a family of three with this salary. A one bedroom apartment can run from 950 - 1300 in most California cities. So both parents have to work to barely make it. Some even pick up a part time job at night. That leaves children unsupervised and bored. Idle hands...

Nobody is raising these children.

So I guess you can say I blame the economy.

Guest
Posted: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 1:11:25 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 781,118
Once you excuse an evil act by all the various channels: they were children, they were mentally unstable, they had a bad upbringing, they did not know what they were doing, and all the other slippery slope reasons then you end up suggesting that the individual is not responsible for his actions and society disentigrates into a meaningless mess. These evil ciminals do not deserve to be alive let alone cared for and cosseted; they commited unthinkable acts for which there is no excuse.
Woman
Posted: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 7:14:07 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 11/21/2009
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Location: Stopping the war 'tween Harold and Kumar
Ok Mister Felix... I come to you with some answers... but not all the answers you had questions for as it is late and I've thunk real hard all day.

You mention that the prisons are over populated... and that no one is raising the kids at home, for parents are off working trying to make ends meet.

And my answer or a possible solution is in my opinion, simple. Wait till 2012 the world to end and we'll not have a problem with anything. What? You mean that wouldn't work? Drats.

Since it would be damn near impossible for what I think would be a good change for society as a whole, and most would not agree, I feel I should stress, that these are just my opinions and how I wish to see the world. Feel free to disagree, or to agree or go... holy cow she is totally nuts.

The problem starts with the whole concept of human rights. You break the law, endanger others with not following the rules and laws set out, I do beleive you have lost your rights. Where to draw the line... that then becomes the question for the philosophers.

Now;
1) Prisons- the buildings should be paid for by the state, the numero uno of the prison and the guards should be honourable men/women, and the number one guard should also be appointed by the State; inmates should have to pay a fee to the State to pay for their guards and their personal health care and such.
2) Food/room/board etc- should be paid for by the inmate/family, in my opinion, I have to pay for my apartment, my food, my hydro/electric etc... they should too. It is not a free ride. I would even go so far as to make it a flat rate, and every inmate would receive the same care, unless they are those really bad ones who need solitary, then that fee should be higher. Otherwise; all inmates, be they Obama, OJ Simpson, Bernardo, The Godfather, Tim Robbins, me, you, The Queen of friggen Neverland, should all be treated the same and no special treatment under no circumstances.
3) Library provided by the State; ease of access to GED's, post graduate courses NO. I have to pay taxes to go to school, I have to pay for my tuition for post secondary school, it just boils my blood when I hear that so and so from Walkerton got her university diploma care of the Canadian Government. Or that the woman's prison in Doon gets firewood delivered and the government of Ontario foots the bill, as they like the feel of a fire in the winter. These are luxuries that many people cannot afford who follow and obey the law. If inmates want them? They can pay for them.
4) There was something I was going to say about working, but I cannot remember as it is late and my brain is not working well!!!

Basically, I say make prisons as horrible as possible. Make the prisoners pay for their upkeep. If they cannot afford it, or their families refuse to pay for their upkeep in prison, then I was going to say something to do with number four, about work....

Take the financial burden off the State and put the burden on the people committing these violent crimes. Then, possibly taxes can be cut as the government would no longer need pay for all the aspects of a prison, and families might be a little less living pay check to pay check and be able to spend time at home.

Blah. My hamster in my brain is still moving at lightning speeds, but I must be in bed!



Living life and enjoying life are two different things... just need to figure out how to do both at the same time to live it right!

Woman... GO FLY A KITE!!!!! Take a slideshow walk with me on a walk through the parks of Inner Mongolia, China. Then enjoy the tale of a very traditional day in the life of a white Woman in China.
Magical_felix
Posted: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 8:50:50 AM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 7,657
Location: California
Woman wrote:
Ok Mister Felix... I come to you with some answers... but not all the answers you had questions for as it is late and I've thunk real hard all day.

You mention that the prisons are over populated... and that no one is raising the kids at home, for parents are off working trying to make ends meet.

And my answer or a possible solution is in my opinion, simple. Wait till 2012 the world to end and we'll not have a problem with anything. What? You mean that wouldn't work? Drats.

Since it would be damn near impossible for what I think would be a good change for society as a whole, and most would not agree, I feel I should stress, that these are just my opinions and how I wish to see the world. Feel free to disagree, or to agree or go... holy cow she is totally nuts.

The problem starts with the whole concept of human rights. You break the law, endanger others with not following the rules and laws set out, I do beleive you have lost your rights. Where to draw the line... that then becomes the question for the philosophers.

Now;
1) Prisons- the buildings should be paid for by the state, the numero uno of the prison and the guards should be honourable men/women, and the number one guard should also be appointed by the State; inmates should have to pay a fee to the State to pay for their guards and their personal health care and such.
2) Food/room/board etc- should be paid for by the inmate/family, in my opinion, I have to pay for my apartment, my food, my hydro/electric etc... they should too. It is not a free ride. I would even go so far as to make it a flat rate, and every inmate would receive the same care, unless they are those really bad ones who need solitary, then that fee should be higher. Otherwise; all inmates, be they Obama, OJ Simpson, Bernardo, The Godfather, Tim Robbins, me, you, The Queen of friggen Neverland, should all be treated the same and no special treatment under no circumstances.
3) Library provided by the State; ease of access to GED's, post graduate courses NO. I have to pay taxes to go to school, I have to pay for my tuition for post secondary school, it just boils my blood when I hear that so and so from Walkerton got her university diploma care of the Canadian Government. Or that the woman's prison in Doon gets firewood delivered and the government of Ontario foots the bill, as they like the feel of a fire in the winter. These are luxuries that many people cannot afford who follow and obey the law. If inmates want them? They can pay for them.
4) There was something I was going to say about working, but I cannot remember as it is late and my brain is not working well!!!

Basically, I say make prisons as horrible as possible. Make the prisoners pay for their upkeep. If they cannot afford it, or their families refuse to pay for their upkeep in prison, then I was going to say something to do with number four, about work....

Take the financial burden off the State and put the burden on the people committing these violent crimes. Then, possibly taxes can be cut as the government would no longer need pay for all the aspects of a prison, and families might be a little less living pay check to pay check and be able to spend time at home.

Blah. My hamster in my brain is still moving at lightning speeds, but I must be in bed!



Good morning woman... Or is it night in China?

Let me just start out by saying thank you for giving it some thought, I see that you have some strong opinions about this but I disagree with you just a little bit.

1.) In Cali they are paid for by the state. That's why they're called state prisons. But that just means taxpayers are paying for them. Not sure if you're pulling my leg here.

2.) What business is it of mine if a family member is a fuck up. Why should I have to pay? And don't you think most of the people in prison come from a poor background? Don't see where you're going to get money where their isn't any. I kind of think that's why they were criminals to begin with. This is similar to they way prisoners in Mexico need money from their families to get toilet paper, clothes, food etc. Look how well that's working. Mexico is in great shape.

3.)What do want them to do? Sit around and figure out how not to get caught next time. Prison is about rehabilitation as well. Some guys are only in for three years for a nonviolent offense. This guy could be 18 without a high school diploma. You want to make conditions so bad that this guy will be traumatized upon his release with no GED and warped social skills. He's gonna end up right back in prison for sure. Again not sure if your pulling my leg.

4.) Agreed... just kidding woman

Woman
Posted: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 1:06:53 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 11/21/2009
Posts: 675
Location: Stopping the war 'tween Harold and Kumar
Nope not pulling your leg. I'd never do that to a person. When you're this tall... you leave peoples legs alone for fear they'll be taller than you!!!!

Nope... my train of thought is basically this... I want to them to pay their debt to society and not have society go into debt to house them. I just do not understand why law abiding citizens should pay to house a man who cannot keep his cock in his pants, or a kid who cannot place their anger any place other than shooting up their classmates, or so many other things. I am just tired of people taking advantage of a situation and using it to get ahead.

Please feel free to disagree, it is all part of the fun!!! But the bottom line is... the justice system at the moment is not working. It is a drain on the system and on the tax payers. Rehabilitation is a novel idea, but there is the term "cereal" no, that is a breakfast thing, I mean there is a term "serial" that is put in front of a lot of terms, I highly doubt someone who is a serial killer for example will cease their activities if released early for good behaviour. There has to be a way to have this system work, where it is not breaking the publics back or pocket book, criminals are treated like criminals, and it works. The offenders do their time, are released and they have learnt from their mistakes and have become productive members of society.

As I said, what is out there are the moments;it is not working. There has to be a solution. And one where bleeding hearts, hyper sensitive- why do I have this urge to write in liberals here?- members of society do not get a say in how this is done. I do feel that punishments should not be a free ride and that it should not be taxpayers paying for their upkeep.

It is at the moment 4am here in the Big Silly. Bloody people and you think after nine years, they'd work out the time zones and not call in the middle of the night??


Living life and enjoying life are two different things... just need to figure out how to do both at the same time to live it right!

Woman... GO FLY A KITE!!!!! Take a slideshow walk with me on a walk through the parks of Inner Mongolia, China. Then enjoy the tale of a very traditional day in the life of a white Woman in China.
Magical_felix
Posted: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 2:36:43 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 7,657
Location: California
Yes please, no more liberals vs conservative... We have a thread for that.

This sounds good woman but it reeks of idealism... Wait there's a thread for that too..

I want to say we do agree on one thing, the justice system isn't working.

And one more thing:) no liberal wants serial killers and rapists to go free and they don't... Those guys get life or the death penalty. Also society pays to keep these people locked up because we don't want them around us. It's almost like a service. The idea that criminals are going to pay to run the prisons where they are locked up seems ludicrous to me...

Magical_felix
Posted: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 2:39:10 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 7,657
Location: California
Quote:
It is at the moment 4am here in the Big Silly. Bloody people and you think after nine years, they'd work out the time zones and not call in the middle of the night??


Now I know when to catch when you're not at your sharpest ;)

Woman
Posted: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 2:49:09 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 11/21/2009
Posts: 675
Location: Stopping the war 'tween Harold and Kumar
Magical_felix wrote:
Yes please, no more liberals vs conservative... We have a thread for that.

This sounds good woman but it reeks of idealism... Wait there's a thread for that too..

I want to say we do agree on one thing, the justice system isn't working.

And one more thing:) no liberal wants serial killers and rapists to go free and they don't... Those guys get life or the death penalty. Also society pays to keep these people locked up because we don't want them around us. It's almost like a service. The idea that criminals are going to pay to run the prisons where they are locked up seems ludicrous to me...


Ludicrous speed ahead Mister Scot!!!! Golly... I've not thought of that movie in ages.

Nah... Idealism, liberalism and all those ism's... just more labels that people try to squeeze into. Not into the label thingies.

LOL!!! Shall we waltz on over to a new topic?

Living life and enjoying life are two different things... just need to figure out how to do both at the same time to live it right!

Woman... GO FLY A KITE!!!!! Take a slideshow walk with me on a walk through the parks of Inner Mongolia, China. Then enjoy the tale of a very traditional day in the life of a white Woman in China.
Magical_felix
Posted: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 3:03:58 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 7,657
Location: California
Woman wrote:
Magical_felix wrote:
Yes please, no more liberals vs conservative... We have a thread for that.

This sounds good woman but it reeks of idealism... Wait there's a thread for that too..

I want to say we do agree on one thing, the justice system isn't working.

And one more thing:) no liberal wants serial killers and rapists to go free and they don't... Those guys get life or the death penalty. Also society pays to keep these people locked up because we don't want them around us. It's almost like a service. The idea that criminals are going to pay to run the prisons where they are locked up seems ludicrous to me...


Ludicrous speed ahead Mister Scot!!!! Golly... I've not thought of that movie in ages.

Nah... Idealism, liberalism and all those ism's... just more labels that people try to squeeze into. Not into the label thingies.

LOL!!! Shall we waltz on over to a new topic?


Yes, my brain is starting to hurt.. Good discussion woman.

Iszofia
Posted: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 5:06:04 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 9/26/2010
Posts: 534
Location: Cloudland, AUSTRALIA
rxtales wrote:
So even if you commit a crime as a child, do you think they should not be given the chance to reintegrate into society as an adult who has "paid their debt to society"?


Sex offenders will always reoffend again and again. Murders for commit vicious crimes such as Venables & Thompson will never feel remorse or repent.
At boys at 10yrs should be playing football not planning a sickening murder of an innocent toddler. They took the precious life of 2yr old James Bulger. Have you actually read about the crimes they committed? You would not have imagined that 2 children did it. They had planned that day of the murder to find a child to abduct and to push him on to path of oncoming traffic and instead they found little James. And what they did to him was so vile and wicked.

Your questions is so flippant and I assume the callus way you asked it is because you have no idea what they actually did.

They’re punishment was a measly 8yrs reduced from a 10yr sentence because of ‘good behaviour’. Life lived in prison is governed by strict regiments. There are rules to follow. These boys may have abide by the rules leading to good behaviour but by no means changes the state of their mentality.
They committed a crime of unparallel evil and barbarity and they knew the difference between right and wrong. They were given the chance to reintegrate with society because of “good behaviour”. The basis of their release should have been based on psychiatric evaluation. They blew that chance, fooled those who believed they felt remorse and continued to commit more crimes. There is no way in hell they've paid their debt to society. Instead criminals like them to should be lock up for life or be moved into a detention centre with maximum security and never be allowed to re-enter society. They lost that right when they took a life in the way they did.

Venables after release got himself into trouble numerous times. In March 2010 Venables was sentence to prison for an unspecified violation of the terms of his licence of release. Justice Secretary Jack Straw, stated that Venables was returned to prison because of "extremely serious allegations", and stated that he was "unable to give further details of the reasons for Venables' return to custody, because it was not in the public interest to do so. This says to me he has committed another unspeakable crime.

Then again in June 2010, Venables was charged with possession and distribution of indecent images of children. It was alleged that he downloaded 57 indecent images of children over a twelve month period to February 2010, and allowed other people to access the files through a peer-to-peer network. Obviously he still hasn't learnt- there was crime of sexual element committed to Bulger.. You tell me there is no connection there.

Little is know of Robert Thompson. But there were rumours circulated that he had moved to Perth, Western Australia. In June 2006 an 8yr Sofia Rodriguez-Urrutia-Shu was murder in a shopping centre toilet, her 14yr old brother discovered her naked body 10mins after she disappeared. The person who committed the crime was Dante Wyndham Arthurs. This person was also believed to be none other that Robert Thompson. Coincidentally or not, both share the same birthday and Arthurs was born in Britain. Arthurs confessed to sexually assaulting another girl in 2001 in Britain when he was arrested however he was never charged with the incident because he left Britain for Australia before an identity parade could take place. Are they the same person?? But both the Australian and British Government have denied these claims.

Guest wrote:
My question is... Should taxpayers pay for violent criminals to be given false identities to protect them or should they be 'thrown to the wolves' and deal with the public outcry and face the consequences of their violent crimes?



No of course not. The Justice System is one big cock up and needs to be seriously reviewed. But they shouldn’t be “thrown to the wolves” either. Instead they should just stay out of society forever in a detention centre designed for such vile criminals. These people will never changed new identity or not. They have not been given a new brain free of evil doings.
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