Welcome Guest Search | Active Topics | Members | Log In | Register

Do you believe in "God"? Options · View
Guest
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 8:30:53 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 674,138
i keep religion and god away from my kids as much as i can so that they might be able to make a more informed choice when they get older and can study science, particularly physics, along side theology so i agree with everything you said except this


DamonX wrote:
You've been infected and no amount of logical reasoning will ever cure you.


i served mass as an alter girl, made my first communion and confession and went to catholic school. i even spoke in tongues with my crazy ass christian aunt. but the minute my then boyfriend, now husband, put a quantum physics text in my hands a light bulb went on and i said "OHHHH! its totally impossible"

religion, is bad, evil even and i was fully infected! but a very small amount of logical reasoning was all it took to "cure" me. so i dont think we can truly say that all children are lost to the religions of their parents.
Chauncey
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 8:42:50 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 9/22/2009
Posts: 169
Location: Massachusetts
well depends, what god are you talking about. I believe in many God and Goddesses.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 8:51:30 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,211
Location: United States
DamonX wrote:


Nudie! You didn't post your number?

Were you expecting me to be a 7? A 7 indicates that a person "knows", which is impossible. I agree that there might be a god in the same way there "might" be leprachauns or a Loch Ness monster. The probablility of all of those are very very low however.

When I describe religion as an illness it is reference to fact that it is imposed on children before they have a chance to develop the critical thinking skills required to decide such things.

Were you given the opportunity to decide? Or do you possess the same religious beliefs as your parents? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the latter. Just as if you were born in southeren India, you would probably possess Hindu beliefs. Or if you were born in Syria, you would probably be a Muslim. If you were born in ancient Greece you would believe in Zeus.

You've been infected and no amount of logical reasoning will ever cure you. The idea of religion is implanted in the child's mind before it has developed the ability to think critically. If you never had anyone impose any religious beliefs on you as a child, and were presented with all the religious options at the age of 25, do you really think you would choose christianity? Or any other religion for that matter? You might...but I doubt it...and I don't think most people would. It would be like me trying to convince you today that there is a being living under Mount Everest that wants you to sacrifice a goat to him every day or else he will punish you with a rain of fire and ash. You would consider it rididulous, just as you would probably consider your current beliefs ridiculous if you hadn't been indoctrinated before you could think for yourself.

That is why I consider religion a disease.


You think rationally about politics, gun control, and health care...but when it comes to religion...it all boils down to "my mommy told me so." I'm not saying you can't think rationally. But I don't think you can think rationally about religion.


I haven't posted a number because I consider your rating system kind of "juvenile" to borrow your nomenclature. To be honest, I grew up in a fairly agnostic household. I studied religions of the world, from when I was a teen up to... now, pretty much. I've had some experiences in my personal life that I consider miraculous. I'm not a textbook "Christian" but I believe in Christ. There's nobody else in the world that believes the way I do. I must be the exception to your rule. Mommy didn't "tell me so". I told myself so.

You're a hypocrite. Putting God on the same level as leprechauns or the Loch Ness monster, while also saying that your mind is open to the possibility that He does exist (along with the leprechauns and Nessies of the world) is the height of hypocrisy, when you equate religion to an "illness" with no cure.


Jebru wrote:
I'm curious whether your logic about being destined to believe what your parents do holds up with you, since I know it doesn't to for me. My parents are Mennonites. The most lenient of that belief, but still Mennonites, who forced me to attend church every sunday until I moved out of their house. By your logic, I should also be Mennonite, or at least Christian, but I do not even consider myself a Christian of any kind. Also, by your logic your parents either never mentioned religion in any way, giving you the ability to choose for yourself; or your parents were atheists, essentially infecting you, causing you to be an atheist.


And I was wondering this myself...
DamonX
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 9:00:05 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/25/2009
Posts: 795
Jebru wrote:
DamonX wrote:

When I describe religion as an illness it is reference to fact that it is imposed on children before they have a chance to develop the critical thinking skills required to decide such things.

Were you given the opportunity to decide? Or do you possess the same religious beliefs as your parents? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the latter. Just as if you were born in southeren India, you would probably possess Hindu beliefs. Or if you were born in Syria, you would probably be a Muslim. If you were born in ancient Greece you would believe in Zeus.

You've been infected and no amount of logical reasoning will ever cure you. The idea of religion is implanted in the child's mind before it has developed the ability to think critically. If you never had anyone impose any religious beliefs on you as a child, and were presented with all the religious options at the age of 25, do you really think you would choose christianity? Or any other religion for that matter? You might...but I doubt it...and I don't think most people would. It would be like me trying to convince you today that there is a being living under Mount Everest that wants you to sacrifice a goat to him every day or else he will punish you with a rain of fire and ash. You would consider it rididulous, just as you would probably consider your current beliefs ridiculous if you hadn't been indoctrinated before you could think for yourself.

That is why I consider religion a disease.


You think rationally about politics, gun control, and health care...but when it comes to religion...it all boils down to "my mommy told me so." I'm not saying you can't think rationally. But I don't think you can think rationally about religion.


Not sure why I have to answer the same question twice, but I will humour you. Since you want a quantitative answer to the qualitative question that Nicola asked and I already answered, by your numbers, I'm somewhere around a 2.

I'm curious whether your logic about being destined to believe what your parents do holds up with you, since I know it doesn't to for me. My parents are Mennonites. The most lenient of that belief, but still Mennonites, who forced me to attend church every sunday until I moved out of their house. By your logic, I should also be Mennonite, or at least Christian, but I do not even consider myself a Christian of any kind. Also, by your logic your parents either never mentioned religion in any way, giving you the ability to choose for yourself; or your parents were atheists, essentially infecting you, causing you to be an atheist.

You are right, if we don't expose ourselves to other ideas we are destined to believe the same thing as the people around us. But that doesn't mean that everyone who was ever exposed to religion as a child is incapable of thinking logically about religion. This is why you are accused of being close minded. It's not because you disagree with us, it's because you seem to imply that anyone who thinks different than you can't think logically.


I never said that all children will always be infected with the religon of their parents. But most religious people possess the religious beliefs of their parents. Go ahead and look at the stats for that if you have trouble believing me.

I was never infected with "atheism" because the absence of belief can not be put in the same category as belief. That would be like me saying you were infected in atheism concerning Zeus or Odin. You are a Zeus atheist aren't you? All religious people are atheist when it comes to the majority of gods that have been worshipped throughout history. I just go one god further.

It is commendable that you threw off the shackles of your mennonite religion. Just as Martin Luther saw flaws in the Catholic institution, you probably have seen flaws with the religion of your parents. But...I'm sure the idea of a "god" was firmly imprinted on your impressionable mind regardless of whether you agree with the intricicies of the various aspects of mennonite belief.

And just to reiterate...I never said religious people can't think logically. I said they can't think logically about religion. Because religion and logical thinking simply don't mix. If it did, religion would be considered science and not religion.

As for my the beliefs of my parents...I honestly don't know. They never forced anything on me and I never asked them about it.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 9:00:13 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,211
Location: United States
LittleMissBitch wrote:


religion, is bad, evil even and i was fully infected! but a very small amount of logical reasoning was all it took to "cure" me. so i dont think we can truly say that all children are lost to the religions of their parents.


I have to disagree. Religion is not bad, or evil. People are bad, or evil. I've seen more than my share of the evil that people do to each other. Evil people can use the guise of religion to do evil things. "Religion" itself, is a concept, it is incapable of either thought or action, and can't do or be evil.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 9:10:13 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,211
Location: United States
DamonX wrote:


I never said that all children will always be infected with the religon of their parents. But most religious people possess the religious beliefs of their parents. Go ahead and look at the stats for that if you have trouble believing me.



Actually, you kinda did in your rant about how children are "infected" and never given a chance to be "cured."


DamonX wrote:



I was never infected with "atheism" because the absence of belief can not be put in the same category as belief. That would be like me saying you were infected in atheism concerning Zeus or Odin. You are a Zeus atheist aren't you? All religious people are atheist when it comes to the majority of gods that have been worshipped throughout history. I just go one god further.

It is commendable that you threw off the shackles of your mennonite religion. Just as Martin Luther saw flaws in the Catholic institution, you probably have seen flaws with the religion of your parents. But...I'm sure the idea of a "god" was firmly imprinted on your impressionable mind regardless of whether you agree with the intricicies of the various aspects of mennonite belief.

And just to reiterate...I never said religious people can't think logically. I said they can't think logically about religion. Because religion and logical thinking simply don't mix. If it did, religion would be considered science and not religion.

As for my the beliefs of my parents...I honestly don't know. They never forced anything on me and I never asked them about it.


"Atheism" is not the "absence of a belief" - it's the belief in a negative. Just as Christians believe in God, atheists believe that God doesn't exist. You're being a hypocrite again. ANd you're not thinking very logically, for someone whose mind is not infected with religion.
DamonX
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 9:13:55 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/25/2009
Posts: 795
MrNudiePants wrote:
LittleMissBitch wrote:


religion, is bad, evil even and i was fully infected! but a very small amount of logical reasoning was all it took to "cure" me. so i dont think we can truly say that all children are lost to the religions of their parents.


I have to disagree. Religion is not bad, or evil. People are bad, or evil. I've seen more than my share of the evil that people do to each other. Evil people can use the guise of religion to do evil things. "Religion" itself, is a concept, it is incapable of either thought or action, and can't do or be evil.


True. Good people will do good. Evil people will do evil. But religion has the capacity to make good people do evil.
SweetPenny
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 9:21:22 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 6/15/2010
Posts: 1,274
Location: State of Confusion
DamonX wrote:
But religion has the capacity to make good people do evil.


Only if these "good people" are very weak
sprite
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 9:24:11 PM

Rank: Her Royal Spriteness
Moderator

Joined: 6/18/2010
Posts: 16,665
Location: My Tower, United States
DamonX wrote:
MrNudiePants wrote:
LittleMissBitch wrote:


religion, is bad, evil even and i was fully infected! but a very small amount of logical reasoning was all it took to "cure" me. so i dont think we can truly say that all children are lost to the religions of their parents.


I have to disagree. Religion is not bad, or evil. People are bad, or evil. I've seen more than my share of the evil that people do to each other. Evil people can use the guise of religion to do evil things. "Religion" itself, is a concept, it is incapable of either thought or action, and can't do or be evil.


True. Good people will do good. Evil people will do evil. But religion has the capacity to make good people do evil.


i have to disagree with this. i think that religion might give them an excuse to do eveil things, but they are going to do them no matter what if they are truly evil.

also, i know that i've been a little down on religion in this particular thread myself, but i'd like to point out that here have been some amazingly selfless acts done in the name of religion as well.... Mother Theresa comes to mind, and i don't think it would be difficult to come up with more names if pressed. Belonging to a particular religion doesn't make one either good or bad. it is the individual acts that define people, and each religion, just as any other organization will have its share of both heroes and villains.

Live, love, laugh.
DamonX
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 9:38:30 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/25/2009
Posts: 795
Quote:
"Atheism" is not the "absence of a belief"


Actually that is the definition of atheism. It is the non-belief in a god. a=absence. Prefix The=deity or god. Keep digging this hole.

I would tell you to go back and read my comments again but I know how that pisses you off. Look...pretend that it's not the evil DamonX writing these awful things and try and actually read what they say. At the very least, get some feedback from someone else before you post any more because you are digging a seriously deep hole here.

Quote:
Actually, you kinda did in your rant about how children are "infected" and never given a chance to be "cured."


Actually there is a cure. Its called knowledge and rational thought. But I would prefer inoculation, by not exposing vulnerable children to the harmful influence of religion.

speaking of children...I feel like I'm speaking to a child right now :)
Guest
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 9:39:05 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 674,138
MrNudiePants wrote:
LittleMissBitch wrote:


religion, is bad, evil even and i was fully infected! but a very small amount of logical reasoning was all it took to "cure" me. so i dont think we can truly say that all children are lost to the religions of their parents.


I have to disagree. Religion is not bad, or evil. People are bad, or evil. I've seen more than my share of the evil that people do to each other. Evil people can use the guise of religion to do evil things. "Religion" itself, is a concept, it is incapable of either thought or action, and can't do or be evil.


maybe religion started out that way , mr nudie, but man, who created it, has done a brilliant job of mucking it up. communism is a good theory too, everyone pitching in, sharing the load. but it doesnt really work either , on large scales.

and the hypocrisy! omg! dont get me started on that! the thievery, misconceptions, lies, abuse. killing in the name of the benevolent all mighty god...who loves us all but not if you like it up the ass and not if you do your neighbors wife or not if you eat meat these specific days and on and on and on ad nauseam! im sorry...however religion started out being..it no longer is that. in my book it is MAN's most evil invention.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 9:42:01 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 674,138
DamonX wrote:
True. Good people will do good. Evil people will do evil. But religion has the capacity to make good people do evil.


YES! that i can attest to!
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 9:49:46 PM

Rank: Alpha Blonde
Moderator

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,595
Location: Your dirty fantasy
sprite wrote:


also, i know that i've been a little down on religion in this particular thread myself, but i'd like to point out that here have been some amazingly selfless acts done in the name of religion as well.... Mother Theresa comes to mind


I also believed in the selfless virtues of Mother Theresa until I did a bit more reading on her. There seems to be a bit of a taboo when it comes to speaking negatively about her. But when you break things down, there are a great many things that swing things into the negative. First of all she was a conservative Catholic that supported the Pope's views on anti-abortion, contraception, women's priests, and generally had the view that a woman's primary duty was to serve her husband and the Catholic church.

For instance, in her Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech she said:

MotherTheresa wrote:

“Abortion is the worst evil, and the greatest enemy of peace... Because if a mother can kill her own child, what will prevent us from killing ourselves or one another? Nothing.”


She also flew to Ireland to prevent a law legalizing divorce, but then supported Princess Diana when she wanted to divorce Charles, all the while panning for the cameras...

Here are some more interesting facts that are little known:

MotherTheresa wrote:

...Her visit to Haiti and her endorsement of the Duvaliers, the source of much deprivation of the poor in Haiti. Also, her acceptance of stolen money from Charles Keating, “now serving a ten-year sentence for his part in the savings and loan scandal.” Keating, a “Catholic fundamentalist”, gave Mother Teresa one and a quarter million dollars and “the use of his private jet.” During the course of Keating’s trial, Mother Teresa wrote Judge Ito asking clemency and asked Ito “to do what Jesus would do.”
One of the prosecutors in the trial wrote her telling her “of 17,000 individuals from whom Mr. Keating stole $252,000,000.” He added, “You urge Judge Ito to look into his heart--as he sentences Charles Keating--and do what Jesus would do. I submit the same challenge to you. Ask yourself what Jesus would do if he were given the fruits of a crime; what Jesus would do if he were in possession of money that had been stolen; what Jesus would do if he were being exploited by a thief to ease his conscience.” The prosecutor asked her to return the money, and offered to put her “in direct contact with the rightful owners of the property now in your possession.” This supposed paragon of virtue never replied to his letter. No one knows what happens to the millions of dollars Mother Teresa receives. There is no accounting and no evidence that she has built a hospital or orphanage that reflects modern health and sanitary conditions.


And I agree... pretty shocking stuff coming from a supposed "Saint". Her primary role was to minister to the dying... not to help better their lives or save them. The issue that comes up is here is all the corruption that can occur under the guise of religion. For some reason to do something in the name of God or religion somehow casts a blanket of safety over criticizing their motives. With little information, I also would use Mother Theresa as a symbol of altruism... but when you scratch the surface... things aren't always as they seem... or as they've been presented to us.



Rembacher
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 9:57:47 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/16/2008
Posts: 1,107
DamonX wrote:
Jebru wrote:

You are right, if we don't expose ourselves to other ideas we are destined to believe the same thing as the people around us. But that doesn't mean that everyone who was ever exposed to religion as a child is incapable of thinking logically about religion. This is why you are accused of being close minded. It's not because you disagree with us, it's because you seem to imply that anyone who thinks different than you can't think logically.


I never said that all children will always be infected with the religon of their parents. But most religious people possess the religious beliefs of their parents. Go ahead and look at the stats for that if you have trouble believing me.


I'm not sure why you want me to look up the stats when I agreed with you that most people will end up believing the same as the people around them, especially if they do not expose themselves to other ideas.

DamonX wrote:

And just to reiterate...I never said religious people can't think logically. I said they can't think logically about religion. Because religion and logical thinking simply don't mix. If it did, religion would be considered science and not religion.


As this is a debate about the topic of religion, how someone thinks about anything else is irrelevant, so yes, you are calling anyone who disagrees with you as incapable of thinking logically. This is what I found on the definition of Atheism. By the generally accepted definition, it is the belief that there is no spiritual being of any kind. So, if a child grew up hearing family members say there is no such thing as a god, or that religion is bad, I would argue that is the exact same effect as having someone say the same thing about there being a god, of any kind. I'm not sure why you think that someone can think logically about everything except one aspect. I think if you expand your theory you will find that most children also grow up to have similar political views to their parents for the same reason. If their parents were political people they would have heard the theories from before the time they could think logically about it. And while it may be called Political Science, I don't think people think any more, or less logically about politics than they do about religion.

And calling someone childish for having a different view point than you and asking you to clarify perceived contradictions in your statements isn't exactly logical thinking either.



http://atheism.about.com/od/definitionofatheism/a/definition.htm

Quote:
There is, unfortunately, some disagreement about the definition of atheism. It is interesting to note that most of that disagreement comes from theists — atheists themselves tend to agree on what atheism means. Christians in particular dispute the definition used by atheists and insist that atheism means something very different.

The broader, and more common, understanding of atheism among atheists is quite simply "not believing in any gods." No claims or denials are made — an atheist is just a person who does not happen to be a theist. Sometimes this broader understanding is called "weak" or "implicit" atheism. Most good, complete dictionaries readily support this.

There also exists a narrower sort of atheism, sometimes called "strong" or "explicit" atheism. With this type, the atheist explicitly denies the existence of any gods — making a strong claim which will deserve support at some point. Some atheists do this and others may do this with regards to certain specific gods but not with others. Thus, a person may lack belief in one god, but deny the existence of another god.


sprite
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 10:00:41 PM

Rank: Her Royal Spriteness
Moderator

Joined: 6/18/2010
Posts: 16,665
Location: My Tower, United States
RE: Dancing Dolls post on M. Theresa - *puts my hands over my ears and goes 'NA NA NA NA NA' until she's done.*

ok, sorry, didn't hear a word you said! i can go on being delusional! *sighs* i bet you kick puppies just like Damon... ;)

Live, love, laugh.
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 10:07:45 PM

Rank: Alpha Blonde
Moderator

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,595
Location: Your dirty fantasy
sprite wrote:
RE: Dancing Dolls post on M. Theresa - *puts my hands over my ears and goes 'NA NA NA NA NA' until she's done.*

ok, sorry, didn't hear a word you said! i can go on being delusional! *sighs* i bet you kick puppies just like Damon... ;)


LMAO... you're too funny... I wanted to Na Na Na Na too... Damn I hate reality!

PS. No to the kicking of the puppies... I just pull a Mother Theresa and wipe Damon's shoe prints off their little heads... geek

LadyX
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 10:17:44 PM

Rank: Artistic Tart
Moderator

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,813
DamonX wrote:
MrNudiePants wrote:
LittleMissBitch wrote:


religion, is bad, evil even and i was fully infected! but a very small amount of logical reasoning was all it took to "cure" me. so i dont think we can truly say that all children are lost to the religions of their parents.


I have to disagree. Religion is not bad, or evil. People are bad, or evil. I've seen more than my share of the evil that people do to each other. Evil people can use the guise of religion to do evil things. "Religion" itself, is a concept, it is incapable of either thought or action, and can't do or be evil.


True. Good people will do good. Evil people will do evil. But religion has the capacity to make good people do evil.


It also has the capacity to make people do really good things. Just because Mother Theresa wasn't perfect doesn't mean religious people don't do great things. Think of all the charities, etc. You can say that those are people that do them, not religions, but it still comes from religious belief. You can't have it both ways- if religion is responsible for evil, it's also responsible for goodness, kindness, and a sense of right and wrong for lots of people who might not otherwise know or care enough to do right and wrong on their own.

WellMadeMale
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 10:25:41 PM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,471
Location: Cakeland, United States
Will someone call and wake me up, when the Matt Damon - Ben Affleck movie starts? I have never seen Dogma.



Most intelligent people are introspective and doubt themselves while many fucktards are proudly over-confident. - a tip of the hat to Charles Bukowski
LadyX
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 10:27:08 PM

Rank: Artistic Tart
Moderator

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,813
WellMadeMale wrote:
Will someone call and wake me up, when the Matt Damon - Ben Affleck movie starts? I have never seen Dogma.



no, we hope you sleep. glasses8
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 10:28:07 PM

Rank: Alpha Blonde
Moderator

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,595
Location: Your dirty fantasy
LadyX wrote:
DamonX wrote:
MrNudiePants wrote:
LittleMissBitch wrote:


religion, is bad, evil even and i was fully infected! but a very small amount of logical reasoning was all it took to "cure" me. so i dont think we can truly say that all children are lost to the religions of their parents.


I have to disagree. Religion is not bad, or evil. People are bad, or evil. I've seen more than my share of the evil that people do to each other. Evil people can use the guise of religion to do evil things. "Religion" itself, is a concept, it is incapable of either thought or action, and can't do or be evil.


True. Good people will do good. Evil people will do evil. But religion has the capacity to make good people do evil.


It also has the capacity to make people do really good things. Just because Mother Theresa wasn't perfect doesn't mean religious people don't do great things. Think of all the charities, etc. You can say that those are people that do them, not religions, but it still comes from religious belief. You can't have it both ways- if religion is responsible for evil, it's also responsible for goodness, kindness, and a sense of right and wrong for lots of people who might not otherwise know or care enough to do right and wrong on their own.



I'm pretty suspicious of most religious charities or missions. They are almost never altruistic (and I'm saying "almost never" on the off chance I'm generalizing, but I'm more leaning towards an all-inclusive statement here). True altruism is a rarity, especially when it comes to an organization. There is always a hidden motive. Look at missionaries or charities aimed at "helping the poor"... they always come with a caveat... we will "help you"... if you believe in our version of God first. That's pretty powerful incentive! Just look at Africa. Nobody does something for nothing. The Church always has a cause or motive, and usually charity is just the excuse to propagate messaging.

LadyX
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 10:34:32 PM

Rank: Artistic Tart
Moderator

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,813
Dancing_Doll wrote:
LadyX wrote:
DamonX wrote:
MrNudiePants wrote:
LittleMissBitch wrote:


religion, is bad, evil even and i was fully infected! but a very small amount of logical reasoning was all it took to "cure" me. so i dont think we can truly say that all children are lost to the religions of their parents.


I have to disagree. Religion is not bad, or evil. People are bad, or evil. I've seen more than my share of the evil that people do to each other. Evil people can use the guise of religion to do evil things. "Religion" itself, is a concept, it is incapable of either thought or action, and can't do or be evil.


True. Good people will do good. Evil people will do evil. But religion has the capacity to make good people do evil.


It also has the capacity to make people do really good things. Just because Mother Theresa wasn't perfect doesn't mean religious people don't do great things. Think of all the charities, etc. You can say that those are people that do them, not religions, but it still comes from religious belief. You can't have it both ways- if religion is responsible for evil, it's also responsible for goodness, kindness, and a sense of right and wrong for lots of people who might not otherwise know or care enough to do right and wrong on their own.



I'm pretty suspicious of most religious charities or missions. They are almost never altruistic (and I'm saying "almost never" on the off chance I'm generalizing, but I'm more leaning towards an all-inclusive statement here). True altruism is a rarity, especially when it comes to an organization. There is always a hidden motive. Look at missionaries or charities aimed at "helping the poor"... they always come with a caveat... we will "help you"... if you believe in our version of God first. That's pretty powerful incentive! Just look at Africa. Nobody does something for nothing. The Church always has a cause or motive, and usually charity is just the excuse to propagate messaging.


I think scared, hungry, desperate people are a lot less suspicious than a bunch of well-fed people with solid roofs over their heads, criticizing their help from afar. Corruption is everywhere, in and out of religion. I think there is lots of 'full credit for bad, half credit for good', especially in this discussion, when it comes to religion. I know it can be manipulative, and I'm nowhere close to signing up with any religion, but it sure is easy to poke fun at, tear apart logically, and blame on general craziness of its followers. The problem is, due credit is hardly given- that's not nearly as fun, and I"m guilty of that too sometimes.
DamonX
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 10:39:31 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/25/2009
Posts: 795
Dancing_Doll wrote:
LadyX wrote:
DamonX wrote:
MrNudiePants wrote:
LittleMissBitch wrote:


religion, is bad, evil even and i was fully infected! but a very small amount of logical reasoning was all it took to "cure" me. so i dont think we can truly say that all children are lost to the religions of their parents.


I have to disagree. Religion is not bad, or evil. People are bad, or evil. I've seen more than my share of the evil that people do to each other. Evil people can use the guise of religion to do evil things. "Religion" itself, is a concept, it is incapable of either thought or action, and can't do or be evil.


True. Good people will do good. Evil people will do evil. But religion has the capacity to make good people do evil.


It also has the capacity to make people do really good things. Just because Mother Theresa wasn't perfect doesn't mean religious people don't do great things. Think of all the charities, etc. You can say that those are people that do them, not religions, but it still comes from religious belief. You can't have it both ways- if religion is responsible for evil, it's also responsible for goodness, kindness, and a sense of right and wrong for lots of people who might not otherwise know or care enough to do right and wrong on their own.



I'm pretty suspicious of most religious charities or missions. They are almost never altruistic (and I'm saying "almost never" on the off chance I'm generalizing, but I'm more leaning towards an all-inclusive statement here). True altruism is a rarity, especially when it comes to an organization. There is always a hidden motive. Look at missionaries or charities aimed at "helping the poor"... they always come with a caveat... we will "help you"... if you believe in our version of God first. That's pretty powerful incentive! Just look at Africa. Nobody does something for nothing. The Church always has a cause or motive, and usually charity is just the excuse to propagate messaging.


I agree...If someone is doing good for the purpose of religion, isn't that inherently selfish? Doing good to assuade religious guilt or prevent yourself from going to hell doesn't seem all that benevolent. Atheists get the same satisfaction out of doing good works as religious people don't they?
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 10:46:40 PM

Rank: Alpha Blonde
Moderator

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,595
Location: Your dirty fantasy
LadyX wrote:
Dancing_Doll wrote:
LadyX wrote:
DamonX wrote:
MrNudiePants wrote:
LittleMissBitch wrote:


religion, is bad, evil even and i was fully infected! but a very small amount of logical reasoning was all it took to "cure" me. so i dont think we can truly say that all children are lost to the religions of their parents.


I have to disagree. Religion is not bad, or evil. People are bad, or evil. I've seen more than my share of the evil that people do to each other. Evil people can use the guise of religion to do evil things. "Religion" itself, is a concept, it is incapable of either thought or action, and can't do or be evil.


True. Good people will do good. Evil people will do evil. But religion has the capacity to make good people do evil.


It also has the capacity to make people do really good things. Just because Mother Theresa wasn't perfect doesn't mean religious people don't do great things. Think of all the charities, etc. You can say that those are people that do them, not religions, but it still comes from religious belief. You can't have it both ways- if religion is responsible for evil, it's also responsible for goodness, kindness, and a sense of right and wrong for lots of people who might not otherwise know or care enough to do right and wrong on their own.



I'm pretty suspicious of most religious charities or missions. They are almost never altruistic (and I'm saying "almost never" on the off chance I'm generalizing, but I'm more leaning towards an all-inclusive statement here). True altruism is a rarity, especially when it comes to an organization. There is always a hidden motive. Look at missionaries or charities aimed at "helping the poor"... they always come with a caveat... we will "help you"... if you believe in our version of God first. That's pretty powerful incentive! Just look at Africa. Nobody does something for nothing. The Church always has a cause or motive, and usually charity is just the excuse to propagate messaging.


I think scared, hungry, desperate people are a lot less suspicious than a bunch of well-fed people with solid roofs over their heads, criticizing their help from afar. Corruption is everywhere, in and out of religion. I think there is lots of 'full credit for bad, half credit for good', especially in this discussion, when it comes to religion. I know it can be manipulative, and I'm nowhere close to signing up with any religion, but it sure is easy to poke fun at, tear apart logically, and blame on general craziness of its followers. The problem is, due credit is hardly given- that's not nearly as fun, and I"m guilty of that too sometimes.


So true! I would say I believed in the spaghetti monster if it meant getting a plate of spaghetti if I was homeless and starving...

Religious charities do help the needy, in a backhanded way.

It's just that the motives are corrupt... but the "currency" they use to exact their agenda, can indeed save lives... all for a few white lies.

Dancing_Doll
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 10:48:57 PM

Rank: Alpha Blonde
Moderator

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,595
Location: Your dirty fantasy
DamonX wrote:
Dancing_Doll wrote:
LadyX wrote:
DamonX wrote:
MrNudiePants wrote:
LittleMissBitch wrote:


religion, is bad, evil even and i was fully infected! but a very small amount of logical reasoning was all it took to "cure" me. so i dont think we can truly say that all children are lost to the religions of their parents.


I have to disagree. Religion is not bad, or evil. People are bad, or evil. I've seen more than my share of the evil that people do to each other. Evil people can use the guise of religion to do evil things. "Religion" itself, is a concept, it is incapable of either thought or action, and can't do or be evil.


True. Good people will do good. Evil people will do evil. But religion has the capacity to make good people do evil.


It also has the capacity to make people do really good things. Just because Mother Theresa wasn't perfect doesn't mean religious people don't do great things. Think of all the charities, etc. You can say that those are people that do them, not religions, but it still comes from religious belief. You can't have it both ways- if religion is responsible for evil, it's also responsible for goodness, kindness, and a sense of right and wrong for lots of people who might not otherwise know or care enough to do right and wrong on their own.



I'm pretty suspicious of most religious charities or missions. They are almost never altruistic (and I'm saying "almost never" on the off chance I'm generalizing, but I'm more leaning towards an all-inclusive statement here). True altruism is a rarity, especially when it comes to an organization. There is always a hidden motive. Look at missionaries or charities aimed at "helping the poor"... they always come with a caveat... we will "help you"... if you believe in our version of God first. That's pretty powerful incentive! Just look at Africa. Nobody does something for nothing. The Church always has a cause or motive, and usually charity is just the excuse to propagate messaging.


I agree...If someone is doing good for the purpose of religion, isn't that inherently selfish? Doing good to assuade religious guilt or prevent yourself from going to hell doesn't seem all that benevolent. Atheists get the same satisfaction out of doing good works as religious people don't they?


Absolutely! glasses8

sprite
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 10:54:19 PM

Rank: Her Royal Spriteness
Moderator

Joined: 6/18/2010
Posts: 16,665
Location: My Tower, United States
Just thought i'd point out that the original question, "Do you believe in God" had nothing to do with organized religion. Yes, it's easy to bash religions. Even if you just look at the present and don't adress the past (The crusades, the inquisition, etc, etc), you still have bigotry, sexual molestation, etc etc...

THAT said. Belief in God. People who have a common belief or interest will always find a community of people in common. People who believe in god will attend church, become part of the flock, ascribe to rules and doctrine. Not always, but usually. That all said, i'd like to divorice the two once more. Having a belief in a supreme being, entity, or energy shouldn't have to carry all the baggage of an organized religion and the men (and women) who head it. Belief in god just is. And yes, as Damon and others have said, you can't prove God's existence. I'd like to point out that you really can't disprove it either and, until someone does, i and countless others are going to go on believing in God's existance. yeah, call us naive, or stupid, or whatever, but i like to believe that there is something worth beleiving in, you know?

Live, love, laugh.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 11:02:20 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 674,138
I dont believe in A GOD

I am a Wiccan so i do believ in MANY god's and goddesses...........

I dont believe in an organised religion where i am told what and who to believe in, my faityh allows me to choose who and what i believe.............how i worship.

Organised religion has throughout history been the cause of oppression and wars.
FierceAndFiery
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 11:08:56 PM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 6/15/2010
Posts: 61
Location: In a chamber, waiting for fun, United States
WellMadeMale wrote:
Fatalism......................................Shit happens.
Confucianism...............................Confucius say, "Shit happens."
Taoism........................................Shit can only happen if you're constipated.
Calvinism.....................................Shit happens because you don't work hard enough.
Buddhism.....................................If shit happens, is it really shit?
Seventh Day Adventism................Shit doesn't happen on Saturday.
Zen.............................................What is the sound of shit happening?
Hedonism.....................................There is nothing like a good shit.
Hinduism......................................This shit happened before.
Mormonism..................................This shit is going to happen again.
Mormonism Editors note--.............This has been deleted because you can't say "shit" in Utah
Islamism......................................If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.
Radical Islam................................If shit happens, take a hostage.
Iranian Fundamentalism.................You better stay off my shit list.
Moonies.......................................Only happy shit really happens.
Stoicism.......................................I can take this shit.
Protestantism................................Let this shit happen to someone else.
Catholicism...................................Shit happens because you are BAD.
Judaism........................................Why does shit always happen to us?
Hare Krishnaism............................Shit happens Rama Rama Ding Dong.
Christian Scientistism.....................This shit isn't really happening.
Existentialism................................You create your own shit and make it happen.
Rastafarianism..............................Lets smoke this shit!
Nihilism........................................Who gives a shit what happens?
Jehovah's Witnessism....................Knock knock. "Shit happens."
Agnosticism..................................I don't know shit.
Southern Baptistism......................Shit will happen! Praise the Lord!
Unitarianism.................................Any kind of shit you want happens.
Secular Humanism........................Shit should happen equally to everyone.
Panglossianism.............................With all this shit, there must be a pony around here somewhere.
Atheism.......................................No shit.
Shakespearianism .......................To shit, or not to shit, that is the question.
Akoslamism..................................My grandfather was Big Shit.
Sadism........................................I enjoy making shit happen
Satanism.....................................Holy Shit!
Energiserism................................It keeps shitting, and shitting, and shitting...
Deism..........................................Shit is nature, nature is god, so thanks for the compliment.
Figism..........................................Shit happens, and it's all my fault.
Goatism........................................Good Morning! Shit happens.
Peer Pressurism.............................Everyone's shitting, you should too.
Feminism.......................................Our shit is equal to men's shit.
Bobbitism.......................................SHIT HAP
Gulliblism.......................................Did you know, "shit" isn't in the dictionary?
Capitalism......................................I have more shit than you do
Nazism...........................................Ve haff vays uff makink sheet happen.
Communism....................................Everyone is treated the same except for the leaders: like shit!
Masochism......................................I like it when shit happens.
Puritanism......................................The Scarlet S
Jainism...........................................Shit happens, if it don't hurt shit.
Monism..........................................There is only one shit.
Snobism.........................................
Theism...........................................All shit is God's shit
Classicism.......................................This shit is ancient.
Cocainism.......................................This shit is rocket fuel!
Daltinism.........................................What color is shit?
Darwinism .......................................May the best shit win.
Dualism...........................................Good shit, bad shit
Egotism............................................I am the shit!
Exorcism..........................................Get the shit out.
Hitlarism...........................................Hateful shit!
Gnosticism........................................Good shit, bad shit
Hypnotism.........................................You are feeling shitty... very shitty
Televangelism....................................Your tax deductible donation could make this shit stop happening.
Amishism...........................................This shit is good for the soil.
Einsteinism.........................................Shit is relative.
Freudism............................................Sometimes shit is just shit
Americanism......................................Who gives a shit?
Realism..............................................I think I need to take a shit.
Denialism...........................................No shit.
Lysdexiaism.......................................Happ Shitens.
Pink Floydism.....................................Shit a Brick
Snappleism.........................................Made from the best shit on earth
Neil Armstrongism...............................One small shit for me, but a giant heap for mankind.
Unixism..............................................Core dump happens
Waldoism...........................................Where is that little shit?
Motherism..........................................Clean up your shit
Ghettoism...........................................I live in a world of shit
Creationism........................................And God said, "Let there be shit."
Xenophopianism..................................Strange shit can't be trusted
Sodomism..........................................Shit packing
Hangoverism.......................................I feel like shit!
Star Trekism ......................................To boldly shit where no man has shit before
Gumpism............................................Life is like a box of shit...
Bubbahism..........................................Fried shit, and baked shit, and shit sauce...
Shitism...............................................This shithead has a shitload of time on his hands.
Nikeism...............................................Just do shit.
Intellectualism.....................................Deep shit.
YourListIsCrookedism..........................................Fuck it, I tried


That was pure fucking awesome. Star Trekism....where's Lydia? xD
sprite
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 11:21:57 PM

Rank: Her Royal Spriteness
Moderator

Joined: 6/18/2010
Posts: 16,665
Location: My Tower, United States
DamonX wrote:
Here an interesting scale to quantify belief in god.



1.Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung, 'I do not believe, I know.'

2.Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. De facto theist. 'I cannot know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there.'

3.Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. Technically agnostic but leaning towards theism. 'I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.'

4.Exactly 50 per cent. Completely impartial agnostic. 'God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.'

5.Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism. 'I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be sceptical.'

6.Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist. 'I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.'

7.Strong atheist. 'I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung "knows" there is one.'

Which number are you? glasses8


since i was recently asked... i'm normally a 2, but have bouts of 3...

Live, love, laugh.
sprite
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 11:24:27 PM

Rank: Her Royal Spriteness
Moderator

Joined: 6/18/2010
Posts: 16,665
Location: My Tower, United States
double post... there should be a way to delete those... for now, i'll blame it on any nearby supreme being :p

Live, love, laugh.
scooter
Posted: Monday, September 06, 2010 12:44:44 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/24/2010
Posts: 2,689
Location: Ohio
Whats your sleep #

Thats a good call Little miss
Users browsing this topic
Guest 


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS

Powered by Yet Another Forum.net version 1.9.1.6 (NET v4.0) - 11/14/2007
Copyright © 2003-2006 Yet Another Forum.net. All rights reserved.