Welcome Guest Search | Active Topics | Members | Log In | Register

Was 9-11 an inside job? Options · View
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 10:46:05 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 675,525
WMM. Just a quick question. Dont you think there are patriots working in the USA secret services/government/neocon offices/whatever who would have stopped such a plan?

Nobody moved a finger to stop it? Nobody talked? No leaks? Hundreds of people should have been on the payroll...and nobody did anything to stop it?

Where is this Wikileaks guy? He has lots of info about top secret stuff involving embassies all over the world but he doesnt have anything on 9/11?


Very weird,huh?


WellMadeMale
Posted: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 11:01:28 AM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,477
Location: Cakeland, United States
javier wrote:
WMM. Just a quick question. Dont you think there are patriots working in the USA secret services/government/neocon offices/whatever who would have stopped such a plan?

Nobody moved a finger to stop it? Nobody talked? No leaks? Hundreds of people should have been in the payroll...and nobody did anything to stop it?


I think there were lots of people (let's call them Patriots, since you like that word) who were finding bits and pieces to the puzzle who have been ignored, silenced, ridiculed, forced into obscurity, even killed. And as you look into this situation, you too will see the same people I have seen over the last 7 years of my own part time - looking into this day. You have to dig to find the identities of those Patriots. NIST doesn't acknowledge them. They aren't mentioned anywhere in the 911 commission reports.

People were moving to alert others in our government about the hijackers receiving flight training. Those reports found the round file wastebaskets at the agencies which they were reported to. Geeze dude...do some research. Or stick around this thread and I'll share my own with you...eventually. There is so much to know and read, I can't dump it all out to you in one neat little tidy report. I gotta debunk the bullshit that you and other people are unknowingly repeating as facts - first, before we can get to all the good stuff. geek

javier wrote:
Where is this Wikileaks guy? He has lots of info about top secret stuff involving embassies all over the world but he doesnt have anything on 9/11?

Very weird,huh?


It's all very weird, Javier. Research that day and events leading up to that day yourself. Why do you depend upon 'insiders' who may not have known all the pertinent 'facts' to spill it for you?

Fear Not, Mr. Patriotic Spaniard...I shall illuminate your eyes for you (have you watched that video about the Pentagon I posted yet)? Until you start to read some of what I've already posted, all your further questions won't make sense. Read dude. Come to your own conclusions.

I have no theories as to who perpetrated this upon America...just who didn't. And 19 Arab hijackers were not involved (alone) in this steaming shitpile.

Most intelligent people are introspective and doubt themselves while many fucktards are proudly over-confident. - a tip of the hat to Charles Bukowski
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 11:17:34 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 675,525
I respect all the info you got, 7 years researching a subject is not light work. You know statistics, weights, speeds, dates, all sort of technical stuff regarding that day.

So if you, a normal law abiding citizen of the USA knows all that stuff, I guess so many others do. Including the president Obama.

Let's just hope he wakes one morning and says "okay, it's about time to send those 5 guys who organized 9/11 and killed 4.000 people to jail".

WellMadeMale
Posted: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 3:23:46 PM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,477
Location: Cakeland, United States
javier wrote:
I respect all the info you got, 7 years researching a subject is not light work. You know statistics, weights, speeds, dates, all sort of technical stuff regarding that day.

So if you, a normal law abiding citizen of the USA knows all that stuff, I guess so many others do. Including the president Obama.

Let's just hope he wakes one morning and says "okay, it's about time to send those 5 guys who organized 9/11 and killed 4.000 people to jail".



Javier, you would only know it if you bothered to expend any amount of energy or time to dig down into the miasma of horseshit that has been spewed out by the US government and the 'official' 911 commission as well as NIST.

If you are satisfied with the fabrication of various crucial aspects of the official story, why would you bother to snoop around? Hell, I'm a fucking loony Truther who has nine different kinds of aluminum foil cap wear. Who wants to be 'that'? It's more fun to ridicule or safer to feel 'safer'... than it is to swallow the idea that you're being lied to about something this traumatic.

Let's analyze the feasibility of cell phone based communications, in use that day aboard the variously reported flights which have been trumpeted by the 911 commission and, heh...the media.

Remove the possibility of cell phone communications (they weren't even possible in 2001) and you have to ask yourself...why would anyone lie about that?

Meh, no cell phone usage...and there's no heroic passenger revolt on the flight that 'crashed' in Pennsylvania. Freedom loving patriots world wide don't have this 'feel good' aspect to hang their hats on as one of the very few salvation points that 'maybe occurred that day'.

(exerpted from that site above)

A large part of the description, regarding the 19 hijackers relies
on cell phone conversations with family and friends.

While a few of these calls (placed at low altitude) could have got
through, the wireless technology was not available. On this issue,
expert opinion within the wireless telecom industry is unequivocal.

In other words, at least part of the Commission's script in
Chapter 1 on the cell phone conversations, is fabricated.

According to the American Airline / Qualcomm announcement,
the technology for cell phone transmission at high altitude will only
be available aboard commercial aircraft in 2006.

This is an inescapable fact.

In the eyes of public opinion, the cell phone conversations on the
Arab hijackers is needed to sustain the illusion that America is under attack.

The "war on terrorism" underlying the National Security doctrine
relies on real time "evidence" concerning the Arab hijackers. The
latter personify, so to speak, this illusive "outside enemy" (Al Qaeda),
which is threatening the homeland.

Embodied into the Commission's "script" of 911, the narrative of
what happened on the plane with the Arab hijackers is therefore
crucial. It is an integral part of the Administration's disinformation
and propaganda program. It constitutes a justification for the
anti-terror legislation under the Patriot acts and the waging of America's
pre-emptive wars against Afghanistan and Iraq.


+ + + + + +

My question to anyone reading this...have you ever actually gotten dial tone on your
cell phone, when you are flying at altitude during a commercial flight? I never have. I've also
never flown on any of the newer generation flights where the technology mentioned in the
2004 press releases, was in fact installed and operating inside of the jets which do now, allow
cell phone communications to connect and calls to actually complete without dropping.

As a matter of fact, beginning in late 2002, when I started flying again, aboard commercial
flights in the USA, I tried to see if I could make cell phone calls, while in flight, at altitude.
I could not. I couldn't even get dial tone on my AT&T CDMA techonology laden, Motorola
manufactured phones. Since 2006, I have flown over two dozen times with a friend of mine
who owns and flies a 4 passenger Cessna. He and I have repeatedly tried to test the
'official cell phone usage theory' and we can't get dial tone on our phones, flying 6000 feet
off the ground at stall speeds of close to only 150 mph.

Ask any pilot if they can get cell phone dial tone, while flying. Try it yourself.

That's all I ask.


Most intelligent people are introspective and doubt themselves while many fucktards are proudly over-confident. - a tip of the hat to Charles Bukowski
WellMadeMale
Posted: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 3:40:11 PM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,477
Location: Cakeland, United States
Anyone recognize these images? If so (or even if not) do you know what their purpose is?





The first one is a photo of the inside of a computer, much like the one you are utilizing now to read this webpage. All of our pc's utilize heat sinks (some have fans) attached to the elements inside our computers which get pretty hot, when we power our pc's on.

The 2nd image is a typical radiator found inside nearly every type of combustion engine powered vehicle on our roads. All passenger vehicles have them (unless you're running the all electric cars).

Both are common examples of heatsink technology which we as a species, utilize to wick excessive heat away from components which tend to degrade when they are over heated. Like fragile computer parts and internal combustion engines (which get very hot).

But it's the computer heatsinks which really interest me. The best ones are made of copper, aluminum. Some are finned (like the auto radiator below)...some are both finned and tubed (and the very best air cooled ones), also have electric fans which blow 25 to 60 cubic feet per minute of air - across the heat sink's radiator fins. This is all done to cool down the main CPU or GPU chips on your computer's mainboard and peripheral equipment.

If we didn't run heat sinks on our PCs...we'd all be working with 1989 computer technologies at 25 megahertz instead of 3 gigahertz chipsets.

Why is this important to anything I might think about, concerning the twin towers...?

Most intelligent people are introspective and doubt themselves while many fucktards are proudly over-confident. - a tip of the hat to Charles Bukowski
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 4:04:22 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 675,525
I'll bet you watch this don't you Jeff? Shhh

http://www.trutv.com/shows/conspiracy_theory/index.html
WellMadeMale
Posted: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 4:38:33 PM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,477
Location: Cakeland, United States
chefkathleen wrote:
I'll bet you watch this don't you Jeff? Shhh

http://www.trutv.com/shows/conspiracy_theory/index.html


Never seen it Kathy.

I'm very skeptical about anything to do with 9/11 or with UFOs, crop circles, what's the other phenomenon called? Seeding or, oh..contrails.

Originally...I believed the official 911 story for about 10 months, while my brain was in full fledged trauma. It was the Pentagon fiasco and then it was reports about all the cell phone calls that were successfully completed by the passengers aboard the flights, to their loved ones and to other sources which made me start to question the official version of events.

And then, not finding Weapons of Mass Destruction after US forces had occupied Iraq for over a year...and learning that Valerie Plame was being sacrificed to embarrass/penalize Joe Wilson for the yellowcake uranium bullshit lies. Heh, our government lied about Yellowcake and trotted the most respected member of their administration out - General Colin Powell - to sell the invasion of Iraq to the American people, under threat of possible surprise nuclear annihilation from Al Queda or Saddam.

You think I wanted to believe this could have happened...that our government could have had a hand in what has occurred? Not initially. I could not wrap my mind around it.

Here's some cell phone education for anyone who cares to read a few light pages of FACTS. How does cell phone technology actually work?

This is how. There's also some testing results (factual information for Javier and anyone else who might care, included).

You won't see anything like this in the NIST or 9/11 commission report.

http://physics911.ca/pdf/Achilles.pdf

Most intelligent people are introspective and doubt themselves while many fucktards are proudly over-confident. - a tip of the hat to Charles Bukowski
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 4:42:46 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 675,525
You should watch one. It might be right up your ally.
I used cell phones a lot in 2000/2001. Called all over the country. Don't remember using one on a plane. Just the plane provided phones.
WellMadeMale
Posted: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 5:32:35 PM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,477
Location: Cakeland, United States


There is no mention of this phenomenon occurring inside either of the twin towers, in the official NIST or 911 commission report. Hell, Popular Mechanics doesn't mention it - as the government's unofficial 'conspiracy theory debunking agent'.

Part of the reason why there is no mention of 'this' is because NIST and the 911 commission report and PM magazine all neglect to show how the two towers were actually constructed, inside their reports or 'conclusions'.

They all fail to mention the inner core infrastructure of the twin towers. Then when that is pointed out to some people, you hear that the inner core doesn't matter. The towers were held up by the outer tower honeycomb construction.

Ignore the real facts and make up your own 'facts' (or opinions, as Javier already pointed out).


Once again, here is a heatsink...used to wick away the very hot temperatures from a typical LGA775 Intel Pentium class, dual or quad core CPU.


And before Jill tells me that my log stove doesn't support a sky scraper nor do computer heat sinks support jackshit...(that's not the analogy I'm using these for, but..thanks for ignoring the real analogy and painting me as an unoriginal bastard! heheh)

I've only seen this mentioned on a few websites where structural engineers and architects gather. Ask any man or woman who has worked in steel frame construction if this same principal applies to all steel framed skyscrapers which are welded and bolted together.




What do you think the entire building becomes (certainly the first 100 to 500 feet) of the outer steel 'meshing' and the inner steel core...if it doesn't act as one huge heat sink.......helping to wick away the heat being generated by the organic fires and absorbed by the steel on the floors where the fires are actually at.

The entire building is one huge heat sink...spreading and distributing the temperatures being absorbed from the jet fuel and officer furniture/carpeting/minimal interior wood framing. Sucking/draining...those 1000 degree F temps away from the 'core concentration' of the areas suffering fire and subsequent thermal heating damage. The steel inside those buildings never reached anything close to the temperatures needed to soften it enough to even weaken to the point of catastrophic collapse failure.

Office desks and chairs, filing cabinets and computer terminals are not made of overly combustible material. As a matter of fact, most of it is designed to retard fire and be flame resistant. The firewood I toss into my irrelevant wood burning stove is MUCH more combustible and readily ignitable than most of the crap inside any office building.




To heat the kind of steel that was used to construct the World Trade center towers up to a level sufficient to begin to weaken all the meshed/welded and bolted together steel...It could not be done. Certainly not by fires that never reached above 1000 degrees F in a timeline of roughly 1 hour per tower (give or take 10 minutes).

You need to heat up A36 structural steel to 3/4's of it's actual melting point before it even starts to soften enough and glowing red to start bending and sagging and losing it's integrity to support as it was designed to do.



Now...go out and look up the actual temperatures required to soften those 12 various grades of structural steel used in the construction of Buildings 1...2...and 7. Look up how long it takes to get that steel to get so hot as to weaken it. We're talking a sustained temperature for a certain period of time and it's nowhere near the 56 minutes or 102 minutes it took for those towers to supposedly weaken and then collapse.

You need sustained blast furnace conditions on EVERY PIECE OF STEEL in those buildings on every floor...before you'll see what we all saw on 9/11. The towers were constructed of steel from 36,000 to 100,000 ksi. Not your everyday run of the mill steel.

All three towers were steel framed and built as you see above. They were all also incredibly strong heat sinks capable of dispersing heat away from the floors where the metal supposedly overheated and then sagged like hot spaghetti.

According to NIST and Pop Mechanics (the official debunker site) There was no inner core to the twin towers. Just elevator shafts.

It wasn't even a 'nice try' but a lazy try - to explain how fire brought the towers down.


Carbon steels

* A36 - structural shapes and plate
* A53 - structural pipe and tubing
* A500 - structural pipe and tubing
* A501 - structural pipe and tubing
* A529 - structural shapes and plate

High strength low alloy steels

* A441 - structural shapes and plates
* A572 - structural shapes and plates
* A618 - structural pipe and tubing
* A992 - W shapes beams only
* A270 - structural shapes and plates

Corrosion resistant high strength low alloy steels

* A242 - structural shapes and plates
* A588 - structural shapes and plates

Quenched and tempered alloy steels

* A514 - structural shapes and plates
* A517 - boilers and pressure vessels

Most intelligent people are introspective and doubt themselves while many fucktards are proudly over-confident. - a tip of the hat to Charles Bukowski
stephanie
Posted: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 5:56:03 PM

Rank: Bohemian

Joined: 1/1/2010
Posts: 5,398
Location: Dublin, Ire., Ireland

9/11 was an inhuman attack by nutcase fundamentalists.....

NOT by all right-thinking Muslims, but by a group of die-hards who want to destabilise US/Western society...

If you're one of those people who buy into some kind of conspiracy theory.... Well.... You're helping those fundamentalists in their cause.... really!
x S

"Unruly girls, who will not settle down, MUST be taken in hand" (Barbarism Begins At Home - The Smiths) xx SF
DamonX
Posted: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 10:31:46 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/25/2009
Posts: 798
Quote:
Heh, attack personalities instead of information. This is what Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity and Olberman do. Congrats dude.


Awww...come one guy...that wasn't an attack on your personality. It was merely a playful jab at your propensity to fully believe in every conspiracy theory that comes your way. You're like the middle aged, conspiracy nut that cries wolf. Let us know what conspiracy theories you don't believe in...and then I might have more faith in what you suggest. I just wonder if you scrutinize over the evidence of your conspiracy theories in the same way that you scrutinize the "official government facts".


Quote:
Meh, who cares, right? You're Canadian, I wouldn't expect you to give a flying shit, one way or another. Unless you can stand back and poke and prod at America, or the US Constitution and try to stir someone up.


Yeah....cause us Canadians are so egocentric and don't pay any attention to the poor ol' US of A. dontknow

I think we...and the rest of the world are sick to death of your nationalistic centralism. So I'm sorry if some of us get a little tired of constantly hearing about an event that happened a decade ago. There are 6 billion people on this planet that don't dwell within the hallowed borders of the red, white and blue. I'm sorry if 100% of our attention isn't on you, all the time!

Maybe you should broaden your horizons? Just think of all the conspiracy theories out there! I'm sure there's a Russian wolfman or Argentinian alien conspiracy just waiting to be uncovered! You might even find a government cover-up in Newfoundland!!

I hope I didn't "stir you up"..... feel free to comment on any Canadian conspiracy theories. I think a sasquatch just stole the rims off my car.... confused1
Playmale
Posted: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 11:44:44 PM

Rank: Smiley Guru

Joined: 7/16/2008
Posts: 551
Location: United States
Hey Jeff,
National Security Alert was quite a piece, and didn't seem to get the attention it deserves.

I rather like that they coorborate all those eyewitnesses, and allow the one plant, whose wife works for the FBI, to out himself as part of the plot.
For all you ADHD kids that can't sit still for 82 minutes.
Here is a link to the evidence collected on a nice fast web page

Just for Kicks, here is a plane that crashed into a building, and the building did not collapse.
The Plane That Crashed Into the Empire State Building

I know, I know, smaller plane, less fuel, office furniture didn't burn the same. Still, these buildings are designed to withstand plane crashes.

Nevertheless here is a video with Robert McCoy, and architect who builds skyscrapers. At 1:09 he says of a building he was building and the WTC towers, whose architects he was corresponding with, "...both buildings were designed, for instance, to resist the impact of an airplane."



Now...
On to melting steel.
MWM, you've done a great job explaining to everyone how a jetfuel and office furniture fire will not reach the temperatures needed to melt hardened steel, and that the fires didn't even have time to reach those temperatures.

So how was it done?
Thermite, or even thremate. National Geographic and Mythbusters each did a number on this idea by piling on a bunch (of thermite) onto a steel structure and burning the thermite off. The thermite burns off so quickly that nothing happens.

They pronounce that thermite could not have cut through the beams and could not have made sideways cuts through vertical beams.

The guy in this video decides to try it out and see if he can get it to work, not with thermite, but with homebrewed thermate ( a less powerful mixture.)

Check it out, lots of fire and explosions. be sure to get your happy1





Jillicious wrote:
Well fuck, you have convinced me. It must have been a government conspiracy.

Woo Hoo! A new convert! Your tin foil hat is in the mail!
Jacknife
Posted: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:04:43 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/27/2008
Posts: 197
Location: United Kingdom
WellMadeMale wrote:
Hmmm...you mean these buildings never collapsed like WTC buildings 1, 2 and 7 ...did?
This first one certainly looks like a towering inferno.




The most recent example of a spectacular skyscraper fire was the burning of the
Hotel Mandarin Oriental starting on February 9, 2009. The nearly completed
520-foot-tall skyscraper in Beijing caught fire around 8:00 pm, was engulfed
within 20 minutes, and burned for at least 3 hours until midnight.
Despite the fact
that the fire extended across all of the floors for a period of time and burned out
of control for hours, no large portion of the structure collapsed.




The First Interstate Bank Building is a 62-story skyscraper in Los Angeles that
suffered the worst high-rise fire in the city's history. From the late evening of
May 4, 1988 through the early morning of the next day, 64 fire companies
battled the blaze, which lasted for 3 1/2 hours. The fire caused extensive window
breakage, which complicated firefighting efforts. Large flames jutted out of the
building during the blaze. Firefighting efforts resulted in massive water damage
to floors below the fire, and the fire gutted offices from the 12th to the 16th floor,
and caused extensive smoke damage to floors above. In spite of the total burnout
of four and a half floors, there was no damage to the main structural members
and only minor damage to one secondary beam and a small number of floor pans,
no large portion of the structure collapsed.




One Meridian Plaza is a 38-floor skyscraper in Philadelphia that suffered a severe
fire on February 23, 1991. The fire started on the 22nd floor and raged for 18 hours,
gutting eight floors. The fire caused window breakage, cracking of granite, and failures
of spandrel panel connections. 4 Despite the severity and duration of the fire, as
evidenced by the damage the building sustained, no part of the building collapsed.


Maybe the union construction workers and the architects in NY State just don't know how to build skyscrapers?



WMM, you aren't comparing like with like. You have matchboxed all steel high rises as the same. If you want to compare these other examples than you need to find one that meets certain criteria


1) Find a steel frame building at least 40 stories high

2) Which takes up a whole city block

3) And is a "Tube in a tube" design

4) Which came off its core columns at the bottom floors (Earthquake, fire, whatever - WTC 7)

5) Which was struck by another building or airliner and had structural damage as a result.

6) And weakened by fire for over 6 hours

7) And had trusses that were bolted on with two 5/8" bolts.



"It is impressive that the World Trade Center towers held up as long as they did after being attacked at full speed by Boeing 767 jets, because they were only designed to withstand a crash from the largest plane at the time: the smaller, slower Boeing 707. And according to Robertson, the 707's fuel load was not even considered at the time. Engineers hope that answering the question of exactly why these towers collapsed will help engineers make even safer skyscrapers in the future. ASCE will file its final report soon, and NIST has been asked to conduct a much broader investigation into the buildings' collapse."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/minu-trans.html



yep, those buildings didn't collapse, but the The McCormick Center in Chicago fell in 1967.
The steel framed McCormick Center was at the time the World's largest exhibition center. It like the WTC used long steel trusses to create a large open space without columns. Those trusses were unprotected but of course much of the WTC lost it's fire protection due to the impacts



WellMadeMale wrote:
Compartmentalized operations of vast scale are run all the time, Jack, without the foreknowledge of the hundreds or thousands of individual 'contributors' even knowing the full scale of their contributions. A real world example is this: People are just doing 'their jobs'. There is nothing nefarious about what those people are doing, in particular. But added up...everyone's task makes the entire operation run. And this operation certainly did not come off without any hitches...that's why people like myself, Playmale, NudiePants and others have grounds to question 'things'. We see the haphazard handling of crucial events, we see the bald faced lies...(like temperatures of 1800 plus degrees of skyscraper fires being bandied about as facts)...we see all these things and it makes us all ask ourselves first...... WHAT THE FUCK are they trying to shove down my throat?

Stick around this thread, you might actually learn a few things which would give you enough pause to consider the unthinkable. That a government would actually allow this kind of thing to occur, if not even encourage it to happen.

THAT is the one thing that my parents and millions of people of their generation and older cannot fathom. They cannot grasp the possibility that their government would subterfuge the entire country and 'everything those people thought they stood for'...just to pull this shitpile off and encourage all the rest of the mind and control games that have occurred since then.

You take away 9/11...and the Patriot Act never gets implemented. The two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan never occur. Trillions in no-bid contracts never get awarded to Friends of Bush (the military industrial complex). The US Economy doesn't go so deep into the tank so quickly. Bush probably doesn't get elected to a 2nd term in 2004 (he's not a War President who is protecting his country - for one thing).

If 9/11 doesn't occur.......nothing is the same in the world since that day.


I'm not saying the Government is so morally superior that it it is incapable of killing its own citizens. You will find no stronger objector than me to the way 9/11 has been used to forward moronically stupid foreign policies by your government, which have been blindly followed by mine.


But there is a huge difference between using that event and taking advantage of it and causing the event in the first place. Now if you want to state all the things you don't like about government go right ahead, but they won't be particularly relevant to this discussion,
WellMadeMale
Posted: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 1:14:28 PM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,477
Location: Cakeland, United States
Jacknife wrote:
I'm not saying the Government is so morally superior that it it is incapable of killing its own citizens. You will find no stronger objector than me to the way 9/11 has been used to forward moronically stupid foreign policies by your government, which have been blindly followed by mine.

But there is a huge difference between using that event and taking advantage of it and causing the event in the first place. Now if you want to state all the things you don't like about government go right ahead, but they won't be particularly relevant to this discussion,


Jack, we have only just begun with this discussion/exposition. First I have addressed the fires inside the Twin Towers. The lack of the blast furnace temperatures necessary and the lack of sufficient time for those low temperature fires to have acted upon the high quality structural steel in both of those towers (which were essentially also, huge heatsinks, which acted to wick away what heat which was absorbed by the steel in the immediate impact areas).

You're branching off into WTC7 much more than I have, but that's a totally separate demolition and over time we will touch upon it in much more detail and depth, too. You are now also introducing the impacts (which are crucial to the government argument/story, also. Destroying the 'fireproofing' around the steel, also helps to further convince the layman that the steel suffered thermal distress sufficient to cause it to weaken and lose it's structual integrity). I have removed the lack of fireproofing material as even being a point of contention. It doesn't matter anymore that the steel didn't have fireproofing sprayed upon it. The bare metal vs the known temperatures argument has made that a non-point.

There is so much more background information which neither I nor Playmale has even mentioned yet, which better addresses the activity of the US Government, and their tentacled and controlled agencies and military, that day. But I will get to it. geek

I do disagree with you about one of your earlier and crucial comments.

I don't need to tell you a theory about WHO caused the events of this day. I don't need to explain HOW this was all accomplished. I have never tried to do that in any conversations with my real life friends or other online internet associates. It's been my experience that when 'truthers' begin to do that without all of the information - they tend to appear to be quite unbelievable. I am first and foremost, a skeptic, Jack.

And I do analyze all of the accusations and proclaimed 'truths' surrounding the events of that day. From the US Government and from the Truthers.

Most intelligent people are introspective and doubt themselves while many fucktards are proudly over-confident. - a tip of the hat to Charles Bukowski
WellMadeMale
Posted: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 1:26:52 PM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,477
Location: Cakeland, United States
Playmale wrote:
Hey Jeff,
National Security Alert was quite a piece, and didn't seem to get the attention it deserves.

I rather like that they coorborate all those eyewitnesses, and allow the one plant, whose wife works for the FBI, to out himself as part of the plot.
For all you ADHD kids that can't sit still for 82 minutes.
Here is a link to the evidence collected on a nice fast web page


Jillicious wrote:
Well fuck, you have convinced me. It must have been a government conspiracy.

Woo Hoo! A new convert! Your tin foil hat is in the mail!


The video titled National Security Alert was not produced in an effort to make money off of 9/11. It talks to many of the same people who were previously already interviewed for possible statement inclusion and consideration for the official 911 commission report.

But their statements were never included in the final report. The 911 commission which was only allotted $20 million to investigate all angles of that day and the days/weeks/months prior to it - completely ignored those witness comments. Those eyewitness statements from ( PATRIOTS - Javier: patriots attempting to help their country understand what occurred at the Pentagon) were discarded by government officials selected by the Bush Administration to 'get to the bottom of that sad day'.

$50,000,000.00 = the amount spent to get to the bottom of the last US Space Shuttle disaster in Feb 2003. $50 million = the amount to prosecute Bill Clinton for Whitewater/Monica Lewinsky blow jobs.

$20 million to investigate 911. President Bush wouldn't even talk to Commission panel members unless Dick Cheney and Cheney's white house attorney were present and all three could speak at the same time.
geek

The final report was delayed until long after the 2004 general elections.

WTC7 reports have still never been fully documented. Those were left in the 'theory stage' by NIST.

Where are our priorities at?

Most intelligent people are introspective and doubt themselves while many fucktards are proudly over-confident. - a tip of the hat to Charles Bukowski
WellMadeMale
Posted: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 2:14:49 PM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,477
Location: Cakeland, United States
javier wrote:
Let's just wait until they kill the wikileaks guy, he said if anything happened to him, all the remaining secret documents he is hiding would see the light.


There are other whistle blowing videos and organizations 'out there' all over the internet, Javier. Does everything have to come through Wikileaks now, to be valid or certifiable enough for you?

javier wrote:
You mean you can only address one idiotic set of opinions at a time. Facts are facts, facts aint intelligent or stupid, they are just facts. So perhaps you are blinded by all those technical details, and the branches dont let you see the forest.


Javier, all I ask for you to do now...is to watch the entire video I posted: National Security Alert - 82 minutes. It is not much to ask, if you're curious at all. Certainly...if you want to know what I've seen which makes me doubt the official story, you need to watch the video. I base 10% of my beliefs on that one video, alone.

javier wrote:
WMM. Just a quick question. Dont you think there are patriots working in the USA secret services/government/neocon offices/whatever who would have stopped such a plan? Nobody moved a finger to stop it? Nobody talked? No leaks? Hundreds of people should have been on the payroll...and nobody did anything to stop it?


On that video, you will see several 'patriots'. All of them are ordinary US citizens. Many of them gave their eyewitness testimony to investigating panels which were to be considered for inclusion into the official 911 commission report. None of those people's testimony was ever mentioned in the official report.

What else do these witnesses have to do? They've already talked, but they've been ignored and silenced - until now. Hence I present you with their testimony. Are you going to watch the video?

If you don't wish to watch the entire 82 minute piece...at least skip ahead to the 1:00:00 (sixty minute mark) to see the next 15 minutes of interview with the man in this famous 9/11 photo near the Pentagon, below -

Driver: Lloyde England. His windshield supposedly shattered by a light standard
which was knocked over by the low flying 757 which crashed into the Pentagon
and then...vaporized, leaving behind only the DNA of the deceased passengers and crew.


Cab driver Lloyde England, in essence admits his small part involvement in the 9/11 black operation, but he was cautious not to outright confess. He worked hard to distance himself from the planners while admitting it was planned.

His actual comments captured on film (without him knowing the video camera was still activated and rolling/focused on him...

"You know what history is? Just what I said, you gotta understand what you are saying."

"It's not the truth, it's 'his story'."

"It has nothing to do with the truth, it's 'his story'."

"It's too big for me man this is a big thing."

"Man, you know this is a world thing happening, I'm a small man."

"My lifestyle is completely different from this."

"I'm not supposed to be involved in this."

"This is for other people. People who have money and all this kind of stuff."

"Well, I'm not supposed to be involved with this, I don't have nothing."

"This is their thing. This is for them."

"That's right, I'm not supposed to be in it. I'm in it."

"We came across the highway together. That's right, it was planned. One thing about it, you gotta understand something. When people do things and get away with it, you - eventually it's going to come to me."

"and when it comes to me, it's going to be so big, I can't do nothing about it, so it has to be stopped in the beginning when it's small, you see...to keep it from spreading."


Watch the entire video, man. I'm presenting you with the information. You don't even have to go out and look for it. It is right in front of you.



Most intelligent people are introspective and doubt themselves while many fucktards are proudly over-confident. - a tip of the hat to Charles Bukowski
Guest
Posted: Thursday, December 09, 2010 2:49:12 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 675,525
WellMadeMale wrote:
javier wrote:
Let's just wait until they kill the wikileaks guy, he said if anything happened to him, all the remaining secret documents he is hiding would see the light.


There are other whistle blowing videos and organizations 'out there' all over the internet, Javier. Does everything have to come through Wikileaks now, to be valid or certifiable enough for you?



WMM, I was being sarcastic there, I dont give a hoot about this wikileaks guy, and I think he's just an attention seeker releasing "top secret gossip", in fact I wish he'll rot in a Swedish jail. But not because of wikileaks but rape. I have zero tolerance with anything involving rape.




Now, about 9/11. I wish whoever did that horrible action rots in jail. Sometimes there is a lot of odd stuff, things dont look like they should, missinformation,time gaps, and all those strange things help to fuel conspiracy theories.


A conspiracy theory is like religion, it's based on faith, you either believe it or not. Nobody can prove that God exists, but nobody can prove that God doesnt exist.

To accept the idea of a conspiracy on 9/11 crosses all moral lines, challenges the very idea of society, it would make life on Earth unbearable, the very thought of some guys playing God and fooling everyone? Not for me, thanks, I just prefer to think that odd coincidences do happen, because I know odd coincdences do happen.

Never happened to you to think about somebody and 5 minutes later you see that person walking down the street? Feeling lucky one morning and hitting the jackpot at the slot machine? There's so many chaos and unpredictability in this world, so sometimes we try to join the dots, regardless of reality.

It sucks, I know, and I wish I had a better answer.


Peace.
Guest
Posted: Thursday, December 16, 2010 10:37:26 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 675,525
Yes. Sorry, but it was. And George W. is a traitor and a murderer, just like the rest of his family. They are close pals with Osama. And yes, it was so that he could have his war. They've known where Osama was and could have taken him out at anytime, but no because of fucking politics. When they came and told George W. what was happening, did he leave the kids he was telling a story to? Or go in a state of shock that it was happening? No, because he already knew about it. He has killed millions of people because of his devious plans. And Obama? What is he doing? He's going right along with it because it serves their purpose.
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Sunday, December 19, 2010 8:20:42 PM

Rank: Alpha Blonde
Moderator

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,614
Location: Your dirty fantasy


WellMadeMale
Posted: Thursday, March 10, 2011 11:16:23 PM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,477
Location: Cakeland, United States
A little further experimentation (which NIST failed to do) and which National Geographic and the Mythbusting morons did (their experiments were quite flawed and weighted towards their own arguments).

Organic composition and plastic material office furniture and, ahem, computer equipment supposedly mixed with kerosene to cause steel melting temperatures. Again, proven to be a lie. And Mythbusters/Nat Geo claimed that thermite couldn't cut steel nor cause steel to melt.

The debunkers, debunked - see this video.



Most intelligent people are introspective and doubt themselves while many fucktards are proudly over-confident. - a tip of the hat to Charles Bukowski
nicola
Posted: Friday, March 11, 2011 2:04:03 AM

Rank: Matriarch
Moderator

Joined: 12/6/2006
Posts: 26,345
Location: United Kingdom
You frightened Javier off.

I am really surprised the whole buildings came down, considering how high up the planes hit. It doesn't seem logical to me. I know nothing of structural engineering though, and am not interested enough to watch countless videos.
Catnip
Posted: Friday, March 11, 2011 9:29:12 AM

Rank: Internet Sensation

Joined: 3/30/2009
Posts: 3,967
Location: Cloudy dreams., Sweden
javier wrote:

WMM, I was being sarcastic there, I dont give a hoot about this wikileaks guy, and I think he's just an attention seeker releasing "top secret gossip", in fact I wish he'll rot in a Swedish jail. But not because of wikileaks but rape. I have zero tolerance with anything involving rape.


This made me giggle, I hope you were still sarcastic cause I doubt a life in a Swedish prison would cause someone to rot.


http://www.kriminalvarden.se/sv/English/Prison/A-day-in-prison/


MissyLuvsYa
Posted: Saturday, March 12, 2011 8:25:18 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 3/12/2011
Posts: 551
Location: somewhere on the coast, United States
Oh Please! Anyone with a triple digit IQ knows how silly those conspiracy nuts are! LOL
Jacknife
Posted: Sunday, March 13, 2011 7:14:20 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/27/2008
Posts: 197
Location: United Kingdom
WellMadeMale wrote:
A little further experimentation (which NIST failed to do) and which National Geographic and the Mythbusting morons did (their experiments were quite flawed and weighted towards their own arguments).

Organic composition and plastic material office furniture and, ahem, computer equipment supposedly mixed with kerosene to cause steel melting temperatures. Again, proven to be a lie. And Mythbusters/Nat Geo claimed that thermite couldn't cut steel nor cause steel to melt.

The debunkers, debunked - see this video.




So problems with this video

Firstly a quick quote from the wikipedia page on the WTC construction

“The World Trade Center towers used high-strength, load-bearing perimeter steel columns called Vierendeel trusses that were spaced closely together to form a strong, rigid wall structure, supporting virtually all lateral loads such as wind loads, and sharing the gravity load with the core columns. The perimeter structure containing 59 columns per side was constructed with extensive use of prefabricated modular pieces each consisting of three columns, three stories tall”

So as the video says lets attack the bolts connecting the two columns with the bolt devices constructed. Each column needs 4 devices placed in each column. As have been shown in the video these devices are not exactly inconspicuous with precise placement needed, So 238 columns need to be rigged in this way. No one will notice this working going on?.

This of course also assumes that your suicide terrorist pilots on the two planes are able to hit the exact floor where the thermate charges are located. It isn’t going to look good if a different floor level starts to collapse so you most likely have to do several of these floors and plant these charges all through out a set range of target floors. The devices have to be able to survive the plane hitting the building without being damaged or dislodged or prematurely going off, but then be untraceable after use. As the video shows, the inner device is thrown out the top of the model. Broke in a couple of pieces but relatively intact.

Then you have the detonation wires coming from these devices, which also no one noticed in this building?

Now the biggest problem with it all. Assuming you can square this task without being discovered. Where are the by products of this little reaction.

As the video shows thermite is aluminium-iron(III) oxide.

So a thermite reaction is
Fe2O3 + 2Al → 2Fe + Al2O3

The aluminium reduces the oxide of another metal, most commonly iron oxide, because aluminium is highly reactive. The products are aluminium oxide, freed iron, and a large amount of heat.

The main chemical reaction in thermate is the same as in thermite: a reaction between powdered aluminium and a metal (Iron) oxide. In addition to thermite, thermate also contains sulfur and barium nitrate, both of which increase its thermal effect, create flame in burning, and significantly reduce the ignition temperature. The video shows the raw ingredients used to make thermate nicely.

Now the problem with this little reaction is the by products is the after effects. Steven Jones. (The guy quoted in the film) claimed to find thermate by products in dust analysed from the WTC. The issue is what would you expect to be there?

Iron is a common enough material, used in paints, electronics, nails etc, so that isn’t a problem, Neither is the sulpher which would be abundant in the gypsum based dry wall used in the tower’s construction. Fortunatly for us, Aluminum oxide and Barium nitrate are not common and would be unique to a thermate reaction. If the thermate reaction is to hold up, these by products need to be present and if they are the thermate debate has real valitidy.

No body with access to dust samples claims to find either of these by products in any sample taken from WTC. This includes many of the truther movements who have done tests and first proposed the thermite theory.

I am not an engineer and only a very basic chemist and these are problems that I see with this video. Somebody who actually knows this stuff I’m sure could do a much better job. One must bear in mind that the 911 truth movement is like the anti-evolution, global warming, holocaust denial brigade. The vast majority of people trained in the appropriate disciplines don't support these ideas. The beauty of science is that it tries to prove the status quo wrong and when there is compelling evidence to support "unpopular positions" there are always people who will listen.
TheLadyOfShalott
Posted: Sunday, March 13, 2011 8:54:13 PM

Rank: Her Ladyship Verifier

Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 362
Location: Wonderland
It's a conspiracy theory that I'm very borderline with. I want to think it wasn't our government... But I've seen some very interesting evidence against it. However, it really does make me sick if it WAS the government.


~ "She left the web, she left the loom,
She made three paces through the room,
She saw the water-lily bloom,
She saw the helmet and the plume,
She look'd down to Camelot.
Out flew the web and floated wide;
The mirror crack'd from side to side;
"The curse is come upon me," cried
The Lady of Shalott. "
Guest
Posted: Monday, March 14, 2011 5:09:06 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 675,525
So if it was really a plot by the government the whole time, that means that lots and lots of people had to be in on it. And none of them ever said a word? And so maybe you can scare them into silence, but no leaks? All the America haters out there and no leaks? Thats a huge secret to keep after ten years especially. If we are all fooled on that one then there would be nothing and nobody you could take for granted as being for real, you know?? Maybe that is the point of him that says its a conspiracy. But I cant talk myself into it.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2011 9:20:21 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,216
Location: United States
nicola wrote:
You frightened Javier off.

I am really surprised the whole buildings came down, considering how high up the planes hit. It doesn't seem logical to me. I know nothing of structural engineering though, and am not interested enough to watch countless videos.


I can speak of this from a different perspective. I used to be a crane operator. Any time I had to lift a load, I'd check the weight and distance from my center of gravity against my chart to make sure I could lift the load. Sometimes the load would be so close to the chart maximum, I had to be especially careful to lift the weight in a slow, smooth manner. This was because if you lift a heavy weight in an abrupt manner, you induce shock loading. That abrupt shock can make the weight seem like it's two to three times heavier than it really is. If I caused a heavy load shock to my machine, I could break the machine or upset it onto it's side.

Now picture the buildings. They were built in such a way as to be perfectly safe, as long as each support member only carried the load it was rated for (plus a decent safety margin). Those load ratings would be static weights. A huge part of the building collapsing onto a single floor would cause such a shock load that the support members wouldn't be able to hold the weight - they would crumple, causing all that weight (plus the added weight of the newly-wrecked floor) to collapse onto the floor underneath, - which would collapse onto the floor under it... and so on. Dominoes in a huge and tragic form.
Guest
Posted: Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:58:13 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 675,525
Inside job? Ehhh.

Did the government have full knowledge about the attack months before hand? Probable

The facts.

In the previous bombing of the World Trade Center, the government of the united states was able to recover plans to run planes into the the world trade center towers (all public record btw)

If you examine all previous wars the United States has been involved in you, you start to see a pattern.

Pearl Harbor, why is it that the only ships that were destroyed were Destroyers? They had been deemed pretty much inadequate and would not be helpful in a war situation. Yet, all air craft carriers were subject to an emergency evacuation, 3 days before.

If you continue to examine these situations, it's pretty obvious the United States knows about these attacks.
WellMadeMale
Posted: Thursday, March 24, 2011 2:46:32 PM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,477
Location: Cakeland, United States
Jacknife wrote:

I am not an engineer and only a very basic chemist and these are problems that I see with this video. Somebody who actually knows this stuff I’m sure could do a much better job. One must bear in mind that the 911 truth movement is like the anti-evolution, global warming, holocaust denial brigade. The vast majority of people trained in the appropriate disciplines don't support these ideas. The beauty of science is that it tries to prove the status quo wrong and when there is compelling evidence to support "unpopular positions" there are always people who will listen.


Jack, this is probably the most honest and telling statement you posted.

There are hundreds who are pilots (who have flown the jets in question) who claim they could not fly into a tower like we were shown repeatedly on the television. There are plenty of pilots who discuss and debunk the notion of a big jet hitting the pentagon and not leaving much more destruction on the outside of the building. Every pilot who speaks on a certain website (many of which have flown large military and civilian planes) have testified that those jets could not maneuver at the NIST stated speeds nor at the angles of 'attack' and remained airborne long enough to have completed either the Tower collisions or the alleged Pentagon Maneuver.

But don't pay attention to those guys. They have the experience but they don't get the media voice. You have to go to their website to read their comments.

There's another site with hundreds of architects and building designers who debunked the entire NIST report. But again, you have to go to their website to read their objections to the official report.

The main thrust of your comment above which is very honest, is that there are a great many people (yourself included) who will 'lump all' of those (like myself) who raise valid questions about 9/11...into The Truther Movement. Why? Because it's easier to do that, then ridicule those of us who have valid questions, than it is to utilize your own mind and spend the time necessary to decide why things look beyond FUBAR.

I have no idea about these so called 911 truthers, anymore than I have any ideas about the Obama-birther folks, but it's another way to marginalize and you do it well.

For the record, I am not anti-evolution, nor am I anti-global warming, nor do I believe that the Holocaust never occurred. I also believe Man went to and landed on the Moon.

Global warming and global cooling are natural cycles on this planet. Evolution is a natural occurence. The Holocaust did occur. Slavery has been a constant evil companion of mankind forever.

The only real question I have for you Jack, is why you're reluctant to dive in and research things yourself, instead of joining the Bush/Cheney line of bullshit blameshifting. Is it a waste of time for you to do so?

No shame in that, bud.

Most intelligent people are introspective and doubt themselves while many fucktards are proudly over-confident. - a tip of the hat to Charles Bukowski
Jacknife
Posted: Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:37:44 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/27/2008
Posts: 197
Location: United Kingdom
WellMadeMale wrote:
Jacknife wrote:

I am not an engineer and only a very basic chemist and these are problems that I see with this video. Somebody who actually knows this stuff I’m sure could do a much better job. One must bear in mind that the 911 truth movement is like the anti-evolution, global warming, holocaust denial brigade. The vast majority of people trained in the appropriate disciplines don't support these ideas. The beauty of science is that it tries to prove the status quo wrong and when there is compelling evidence to support "unpopular positions" there are always people who will listen.


Jack, this is probably the most honest and telling statement you posted.

There are hundreds who are pilots (who have flown the jets in question) who claim they could not fly into a tower like we were shown repeatedly on the television. There are plenty of pilots who discuss and debunk the notion of a big jet hitting the pentagon and not leaving much more destruction on the outside of the building. Every pilot who speaks on a certain website (many of which have flown large military and civilian planes) have testified that those jets could not maneuver at the NIST stated speeds nor at the angles of 'attack' and remained airborne long enough to have completed either the Tower collisions or the alleged Pentagon Maneuver.

But don't pay attention to those guys. They have the experience but they don't get the media voice. You have to go to their website to read their comments.

There's another site with hundreds of architects and building designers who debunked the entire NIST report. But again, you have to go to their website to read their objections to the official report.

The main thrust of your comment above which is very honest, is that there are a great many people (yourself included) who will 'lump all' of those (like myself) who raise valid questions about 9/11...into The Truther Movement. Why? Because it's easier to do that, then ridicule those of us who have valid questions, than it is to utilize your own mind and spend the time necessary to decide why things look beyond FUBAR.

I have no idea about these so called 911 truthers, anymore than I have any ideas about the Obama-birther folks, but it's another way to marginalize and you do it well.

For the record, I am not anti-evolution, nor am I anti-global warming, nor do I believe that the Holocaust never occurred. I also believe Man went to and landed on the Moon.

Global warming and global cooling are natural cycles on this planet. Evolution is a natural occurence. The Holocaust did occur. Slavery has been a constant evil companion of mankind forever.

The only real question I have for you Jack, is why you're reluctant to dive in and research things yourself, instead of joining the Bush/Cheney line of bullshit blameshifting. Is it a waste of time for you to do so?

No shame in that, bud.


My point with this debate is that you have to express an idea of what in fact happened. At no point have I said the NIST report is an infallible piece of work that is beyond question. There is loads of stuff in it I am not happy with and quite frankly more things should have been tested out, however their problem is the same as mine. They cannot go through every different theory and explain absolutely everything. It would take a lifetime to satisfy everyone.

For every pilot who says these planes can't do there are other pilots who say they can. Also one thing we don't lack is video of the the planes hitting the two towers. Are all of them fake? are the eye witnesses all being deceived?

I'm an Atheist right, I haven't gone through every single religion ever invented by man, studied their claims and come up with individual reasons why they are wrong. Its the same as this, I don't have the time, money or expertise. However the big ones, I have very good arguments against. In the same way I haven't looked into the theory that there were actually no planes and the planes were in fact a sophisticated new set of holograms with already explosives in the building or that tiny nuclear charges were used to bring them down. Stuff like that is not worthy of my time.

However the video you posted about the thermate, I really enjoyed, I found it very interesting and it was good because you put forward an idea, which I was able to respond to and find a rather large problem with and you have an opportunity to address it. Your problem is I have no idea what you are actually saying happened. I have no idea for example if you think Bush or Cheney ordered the attacks themselves etc. I can't go up against you on the issue when I don't know what you think.

All I really know is you don't buy the NIST report. Now that is a perfectly acceptable position to take, but that is a huge leap to say that 9/11 was an inside job. Even if you debunked the entire document you would need something to put in its place. There is a difference between proving someone else wrong and proving yourself to be right.

Oh and the part I disliked of your post was the end as if I am blindly following Bush and Cheney. Grossly untrue. If I had my way, both these to fucktards would be at the Hague for war crimes. Gross incompetence is also another huge thing which people don't lay enough in their direction. I sometimes wonder what would have happened to Al Gore if he had been president, I'm sure half of congress would have wanted him impeached.

I also don't understand how they were able to run on a platform of "we are the only people who can keep you safe" when 9/11 happened on their watch. Those two are absolute scumbags, but there is a difference between creating a tragedy and using it to your own advantage and to further your own agenda.

I even have this idea that the only reason Bush didn't get assassinated was because then Cheney would then take over. A truly horrifying thought.
Users browsing this topic
Guest 


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS

Powered by Yet Another Forum.net version 1.9.1.6 (NET v4.0) - 11/14/2007
Copyright © 2003-2006 Yet Another Forum.net. All rights reserved.