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What's your opinion on abortion? Options · View
Monocle
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 7:31:48 PM

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A fetus is alive. A zygote is alive. Eggs and sperm are alive. Single skin cells are alive. Bacteria are alive. "Alive" is a crappy criterion with which to abrogate the rights of a woman. Your question is more properly, "at which point to we grant a fetus the right to restrict the freedom of the person carrying it". My answer is, while the fetus remains inside and dependent on the person carrying it, never.
VanGogh
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 7:35:33 PM

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and here we go .... (or here goes part of the US)


Quote:
(Reuters) - North Carolina Governor Pat McCrory signed into law on Monday new requirements for clinics performing abortions, saying the measure added safety protections for women, after weeks of protests by abortion rights advocates who said the new rules would restrict access to the procedure.

The new law, passed in the waning days of North Carolina's legislative session in late July, places sweeping new restrictions on abortion clinics, including a requirement that doctors have admitting privileges at nearby hospitals and be present when abortions are performed.


more ....

Quote:
By Jessica Mason Pieklo
July 11, 2013 10:00 AM ET
Last week, while most of the country was celebrating the Fourth of July holiday, lawmakers in North Carolina took a bill designed to combat so-called "Sharia law" and, without any notice or warning, transformed it into a massive anti-abortion omnibus bill – one that included every single abortion restriction introduced in the 2013 legislative session. The proposals include restricting insurance coverage for abortion services, excessive restrictions on medication abortions and a host of unnecessary regulations on the state's clinics that would likely force them to close. The bill, known as HB 695, sailed through the chamber's full vote less than 24 hours after it was first proposed – but it sparked a wave of criticism and protest, even among conservatives. Republican Governor Pat McCrory, who pledged as a candidate to leave the state's abortion laws alone, threatened to break with his party and veto the legislation unless it went through "significant" changes. But rather than back down, lawmakers doubled down and, with even less notice and less opportunity for the public to respond, attached a slightly modified version of the restrictions to a motorcycle safety bill. Because that's how democracy works.

North Carolina is just the latest state where conservative lawmakers are making a go-for-broke run on abortion rights. It's a strategy that depends on keeping the public in the dark. So far in 2013, 17 states have passed a total of 43 abortion restrictions. Like the ones in North Carolina, many of these restrictions passed under political cover of darkness. In Ohio, anti-choice lawmakers attached to their two-year budget provisions that will defund Planned Parenthood clinics, strip funding from rape crisis centers that provide any information about abortion, reallocate funding to religiously affiliated "crisis pregnancy centers" and, most disturbingly, mandate that doctors provide women seeking abortions information about the presence of a "fetal heartbeat" prior to performing the procedure. In Wisconsin, Republican Governor Scott Walker made good use of the 4th of July holiday to quietly sign a host of new abortion restrictions in his state before being stopped, again, by a federal court. And let's not forget Texas, where lawmakers are still trying to ram through abortion restrictions in yet another special session after state senator Wendy Davis and thousands of supporters stopped the last one. The trend is disturbing. As Ilyse Hogue, president of NARAL Pro-Choice America, has argued, the greater the restriction, the more willing conservative lawmakers are to cheat to win.

But conservatives may want to re-think that strategy. In North Carolina, like Texas, conservatives' play at restricting abortion access has helped mobilize the state's progressive and Democratic base. Every Monday since April, thousands of North Carolinians have gathered at the State Capitol in Raleigh to protest the direction in which the Republican majority is taking the state. What started out as a few dozen protesters has now ballooned, with over 700 North Carolinians arrested in the last 10 weeks for engaging in acts of civil disobedience at these "Moral Monday" demonstrations. Their issues are wide-ranging, with protesters challenging lawmakers on everything from voting rights to fracking to school vouchers and racial equality. But it wasn't until lawmakers targeted abortion rights that that the protests really took off. Last Monday, in response to the anti-abortion omnibus law, approximately 2,000 protesters flooded the Capitol. At least 64 protesters were arrested in the name of protecting access to abortion. It's worth noting that, like the events in Texas, this is all happening in a red state – a powerful counter-example to those who argue that abortion rights are not a winnable political issue across the country.

Lawmakers in North Carolina have until the end of the current session, which could be as early as next week, to pass these new restrictions. If they can't get them passed, then they will have to wait until at least January to try again. Meanwhile, it's not clear whether Gov. McCrory intends to follow through with his veto threat – or whether right-wing lawmakers have the votes to override it if he does. Either way, a crucial question remains to be answered: Just how far are conservatives willing to go in their attack on abortion rights, and can the moderates in the party stop them?

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/thousands-protest-extreme-anti-abortion-law-in-north-carolina-20130711#ixzz2aULlGEU7



Ain't politics grand? coffee

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Guest
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 8:43:51 PM

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This is ridiculous. You all want me to respect your opinions, which I do respect, but you're not willing to respect my opinion. Then you wonder why I react the way I did before. Y'all started the altercation. Y'all attacked my views first. Then you paint me as the criminal for not wanting to kill a baby after I lost one. The pregnancy then wasn't wanted either but I wasn't going to be selfish and kill it just because it was the product of rape. That's the difference here, I don't put myself first. The pregnancy could have killed me but that didn't matter because it wasn't MY life to decide on. I had to think of the fetus inside me.

Where's the line, you ask? I think if there's somethig inside you that has its own organs, you shouldn't dictate whether it lives unless you're going to die if you carry to term.

Y'all keep sayin to look at it from your point of view, but you're not willing to look at it from the point of view of the life you're trying to take away.
Guest
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 8:47:31 PM

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Monocle wrote:
A fetus is alive. A zygote is alive. Eggs and sperm are alive. Single skin cells are alive. Bacteria are alive. "Alive" is a crappy criterion with which to abrogate the rights of a woman. Your question is more properly, "at which point to we grant a fetus the right to restrict the freedom of the person carrying it". My answer is, while the fetus remains inside and dependent on the person carrying it, never.


And how exactly was my view dehumanizing compared to this view? Isn't all life sacred?
Dani
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 9:00:36 PM

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htowngirl1990 wrote:
This is ridiculous. You all want me to respect your opinions, which I do respect, but you're not willing to respect my opinion. Then you wonder why I react the way I did before. Y'all started the altercation. Y'all attacked my views first. Then you paint me as the criminal for not wanting to kill a baby after I lost one. The pregnancy then wasn't wanted either but I wasn't going to be selfish and kill it just because it was the product of rape. That's the difference here, I don't put myself first. The pregnancy could have killed me but that didn't matter because it wasn't MY life to decide on. I had to think of the fetus inside me.

Where's the line, you ask? I think if there's somethig inside you that has its own organs, you shouldn't dictate whether it lives unless you're going to die if you carry to term.

Y'all keep sayin to look at it from your point of view, but you're not willing to look at it from the point of view of the life you're trying to take away.


I'm sorry, but that is completely untrue. No one has attacked your views. From the looks of things, you want us to sympathize with you...which we all do for the most part. I don't disagree with your opinion or the reasons behind your opinion.

I just disagree, from a legal standpoint, with your ideals of deciding who is deserving of an abortion and who isn't. Not every woman is capable, mentally or emotionally, to carry and give birth to a baby that was forced on her.

I'm not asking you to change your views. I respect them. I just want you to respect mine without criminalizing them. In fact, you don't even have to respect my opinion. You can downright despise me for it. If you think it's murder and I think it's something else, so what? You claim to be pro-life but not anti-choice...but everything you say depicts the exact opposite. And if that is indeed the case, then that's fine. But can you please stop with the finger-pointing and the criminalizing and the victimizing and the self-righteousness/indignation? It gets rather hard to stomach after a while.

Let every woman choose for herself, and leave it at that.


BiMale73
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 10:46:40 PM

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sprite wrote:
-we're not talking about necrophilia here, which is illegal (and doesn't result in pregnancy).


Are you absolutely sure about that?
Have a look at Mary Roach: 10 things you didn't know about orgasm from 3m43s onwards :)


Dani
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 10:55:25 PM

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BiMale73 wrote:


Are you absolutely sure about that?
Have a look at Mary Roach: 10 things you didn't know about orgasm from 3m43s onwards :)


Orgasms don't guarantee pregnancy. And just because there's an orgasm it doesn't mean the sex is voluntary. Not sure how this would make necrophilia legal.


BiMale73
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 11:14:06 PM

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slipperywhenwet2012 wrote:
Orgasms don't guarantee pregnancy. And just because there's an orgasm it doesn't mean the sex is voluntary. Not sure how this would make necrophilia legal.


You're right. You're right. And it won't.
Was only a silly response to the "and doesn't result in pregnancy" part. Should probably have added an 'off-topic' sign.

insatiable
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 11:30:50 PM

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I am pro-choice..
MadMartigan
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 9:34:38 AM

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htowngirl1990 wrote:
This is ridiculous. You all want me to respect your opinions, which I do respect, but you're not willing to respect my opinion. Then you wonder why I react the way I did before. Y'all started the altercation. Y'all attacked my views first. Then you paint me as the criminal for not wanting to kill a baby after I lost one. The pregnancy then wasn't wanted either but I wasn't going to be selfish and kill it just because it was the product of rape. That's the difference here, I don't put myself first. The pregnancy could have killed me but that didn't matter because it wasn't MY life to decide on. I had to think of the fetus inside me.

Where's the line, you ask? I think if there's somethig inside you that has its own organs, you shouldn't dictate whether it lives unless you're going to die if you carry to term.

Y'all keep sayin to look at it from your point of view, but you're not willing to look at it from the point of view of the life you're trying to take away.


Because it is a silly argument that I refuse to acknowledge. Oh sure, I respect you value life (I won't, however, respect the views of conservative politicians out to build a theocracy, which most of them want anyway). I will NOT tolerate calling something that is effectively leaching the life of someone like a parasite, murder. Or calling those women killers without any compassion.

And excuse....Not be SELFISH to terminate a pregnancy from rape? Did you seriously just go there? angry7

But, then this is also a philosophical debate as well as science in decided when a person becomes self-aware.

You say you aren't fully against the choice, yet you are still advocating governmental rights to allow for the essential ownership of a woman's body under "law."

I will not abide anyone's rights being infringed upon and as harsh and awful as it may seem, it seems I have to use this language...

Forcing a woman to live with a parasitic creature inside her against her will is abhorrent. And forcing them to carry will only makes things worse. The mother may start taking drugs, drinking heavily, etc etc to kill off the baby inside her...

I'd rather abortions than that or Dr. Johnny from across the street learning clothes-hanger specialties.
VanGogh
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:10:51 PM

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Posts: 3,439
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htowngirl1990 wrote:

Isn't all life sacred?


Give me a fucking break! Jeezus ..... we all GET IT that you liken abortion to murder.

I would love for THAT argument to be used against Zimmerman .... or Casey Anthony (and countless others who have murdered but not found guilty by some whackjob of a jury) .... with respect to the "full sized" human being they murdered .... and convicted for those murders.

And, contrary to your belief that those in the Pro-Choice stance do NOT look at it from your point of view - you are dead wrong. NOT ONE woman that I know of (who has had an abortion) has said, "easy peasy, murder the little bastard". EVERY woman I know, including myself, has looked at the quality of life (for ourselves/family and including the fetus). Every woman has that on her conscience .... and the sane ones would never want to repeat it.

Those in the Pro-Choice are FOR women having the right to choose (not men or government "allowing" what we can or cannot choose) and that we have SAFE and available procedures.

Really, I don't think anyone wants abortions to be de-legalized and backroom butchering to start up again. And as stated above .... there are FAR too many babies and kids in the "family services" system without families - or families that don't give a shit about them.

Instead of a coffee ... I think I need a drink. Pour Wine


A Milf series combined with Office Sex *fans face* .... The Secretary and The Student
starting withThe Secretary and The Student - first part with a Famous Story - over 30,000 views! woohoo!

Enjoy!!

For the Anal Lovers .... come enjoy my RR honoured An Alluring Ass

Another Sex in the Office Poem (I know you love those!!) In Your Office with over 10,000 views! woohoo!

Monocle
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:19:55 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/19/2007
Posts: 301
htowngirl1990 wrote:


And how exactly was my view dehumanizing compared to this view? Isn't all life sacred?


Your view is not dehumanizing. Your view would enslave certain women to a fetus during the incubation period as punishment for irresponsibility. That's not a judgment, that's just a fact.

Isn't all life sacred? No.
redheadnicole
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 11:31:06 PM

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This is such a touchy subject and i have to say i am against it. But with everything i like to think ' hate the sin, not the sinner'. When it comes down to it a women will choose what is best for her. I understand it can be a hard choice sometimes. I am not some crazy bitch who is going to go burn down a abortion clinic or stand on a street protesting. It is not my place to judge and never will be, no one has the right to judge a women who has an abortion
AriOli101
Posted: Sunday, August 11, 2013 4:04:41 PM

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redheadnicole wrote:
This is such a touchy subject and i have to say i am against it. But with everything i like to think ' hate the sin, not the sinner'. When it comes down to it a women will choose what is best for her. I understand it can be a hard choice sometimes. I am not some crazy bitch who is going to go burn down a abortion clinic or stand on a street protesting. It is not my place to judge and never will be, no one has the right to judge a women who has an abortion


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NymphWriter
Posted: Sunday, August 11, 2013 4:29:55 PM

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I have always been a pro-choice person. I feel that the decision is never made lightly and should be a "joint" decision. However, too many men thing they either have the right to tell a woman to she must have an abortion or to keep the child. Though I know most men feel they are not given a voice, I feel they should listen to the woman and discuss all the options. A true man will support his woman's decision no matter what, even if he doesn't fully agree.

Guest
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2013 8:18:59 PM

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I also agree this is a touchy situation. For me only way I would of had one is medical reasons. I would of never had one just to have one. We have a lot of contraceptions out there use them....
sprite
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2013 9:40:01 PM

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countrygirl58 wrote:
I also agree this is a touchy situation. For me only way I would of had one is medical reasons. I would of never had one just to have one. We have a lot of contraceptions out there use them....


i agree whole heartedly - that's why, despite being in a lesbian relationship (we're legally married, btw) i continue to take the pill - sadly, i have learned that No doesn't not always mean NO.

oh, and for the record, most women i know don't just decide to have an abortion for the sake of having one - it's not really like deciding to get a hair cut or change the color of your nails, despite people's opinions otherwise.

Live, love, laugh.
Guest
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2013 9:57:01 PM

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Wow, this is a very touchy subject indeed, and I'll just say right out that I'm completely against abortion. I have always been pro-life and could never imagine eradicating the existence of my child.
They have a plethora of ways to prevent unwanted pregnancies, so I think people should seriously consider that first and how that is foremost their responsibility.
I think if I say much more I might offend, so I'll leave it at that. :)
Guest
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2013 10:24:53 PM

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Abortion is very controversial, especially if it's used as a form of birth control, with the couple thinking they can do without other protection and then "just get an abortion." Other times, it has to be done to save the life of a mother who'd die in childbirth, or to remove an unborn child from a mother who was RAPED and cannot support a child. When a person is not ready physically, emotionally, or financially to have a baby, an abortion is considered.
SensualSharon
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2013 10:42:44 PM

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A woman's choice always, no matter why. Not for anyone to decide but her.
theFreakyRican
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2013 10:47:10 PM

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People have a choice imo. Depending on the circumstance. I am not against it. As a form of birth control itself terrible. There are ways to prevent pregnancy indeed. So really there is no reason to get have to make such a decision. But if that's a persons choice, who am I do judge them.
tango48
Posted: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 12:07:00 AM

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pro choice (circumstances dependent)

if, 'to be or not to be' is the question - then how is E=MC^2?
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 1:18:08 AM

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I have always believed a woman should be able to choose for herself. The only input society should be allowed to inflict are reasonable terms of time restriction. After all, there does come the point where that embryo becomes a person.
I have always believed that a woman could get an abortion when the pregnancy was caused by rape. I could never understand why a woman would carry the result of a rape to term.

However, the past couple of weeks have been enlightening.

First, my mom was adopted. She has known that and told me about it when I was quite young. She never knew what the circumstances were surrounding her adoption until only few weeks ago when we uncovered the fact that my biological grandmother was raped at the age of 12 by her brother-in-law. She gave birth to my mom at age 13 and gave my mom up for adoption when my mom was 18 months old. Why she waited 18 months to adopt her out is still unclear but we're researching. We found a picture of my grandmother holding my mom and we found an article that spoke to the rapists court hearing.

So, now I'm confused about where I stand on abortion in rape because if my biological grandmother had gotten an abortion I wouldn't have the life I have with my brothers and our family. While I will never side with those republican assholes who say it was "God's will" I really don't know where to stand on the subject right now as a blanket belief, in the case of rape, as I had before.

However, I'm absolutely positive I would never stand in the way of a woman's right to choose for herself.
MadMartigan
Posted: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 8:42:24 AM

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Kristind wrote:
I have always believed a woman should be able to choose for herself. The only input society should be allowed to inflict are reasonable terms of time restriction. After all, there does come the point where that embryo becomes a person.
I have always believed that a woman could get an abortion when the pregnancy was caused by rape. I could never understand why a woman would carry the result of a rape to term.

However, the past couple of weeks have been enlightening.

First, my mom was adopted. She has known that and told me about it when I was quite young. She never knew what the circumstances were surrounding her adoption until only few weeks ago when we uncovered the fact that my biological grandmother was raped at the age of 12 by her brother-in-law. She gave birth to my mom at age 13 and gave my mom up for adoption when my mom was 18 months old. Why she waited 18 months to adopt her out is still unclear but we're researching. We found a picture of my grandmother holding my mom and we found an article that spoke to the rapists court hearing.

So, now I'm confused about where I stand on abortion in rape because if my biological grandmother had gotten an abortion I wouldn't have the life I have with my brothers and our family. While I will never side with those republican assholes who say it was "God's will" I really don't know where to stand on the subject right now as a blanket belief, in the case of rape, as I had before.

However, I'm absolutely positive I would never stand in the way of a woman's right to choose for herself.


Thanks for sharing. That must have been difficult to learn.

My only response would be that, not all cases of rape turn out happily like that. My believe regarding rape is that it all depends on the person. It could happen to someone who cannot handle stress.

Maybe the person it was inflicted upon, the experience was incredibly brutal and traumatic to the point the person self-medicates with booze or drugs, goes through with the birth, and has now, because of the drugs, damaged the infant to the point of brain disorders and the like.

Or the person keeps the baby and takes out their anger on the child down the line.

Not to mention the mental instability the mother could have being forced to carry a child from an act of absolute evil.

It's tricky. Which is why, ultimately, it should solely be up the woman.
WellMadeMale
Posted: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 12:10:35 PM

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States which are most pro-life.

Darker shades, are the most pro-life:



Most intelligent people are introspective and doubt themselves while many fucktards are proudly over-confident. - a tip of the hat to Charles Bukowski
Magical_felix
Posted: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 12:16:35 PM

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Location: California
WellMadeMale wrote:
States which are most pro-life.

Darker shades, are the most pro-life:



I want to perform a late, late, late, late, late, late, late, late, late... LATE. Late term abortion of this wellmademale.



Guest
Posted: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 1:36:38 PM

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MadMartigan wrote:


Thanks for sharing. That must have been difficult to learn.

My only response would be that, not all cases of rape turn out happily like that. My believe regarding rape is that it all depends on the person. It could happen to someone who cannot handle stress.

Maybe the person it was inflicted upon, the experience was incredibly brutal and traumatic to the point the person self-medicates with booze or drugs, goes through with the birth, and has now, because of the drugs, damaged the infant to the point of brain disorders and the like.

Or the person keeps the baby and takes out their anger on the child down the line.

Not to mention the mental instability the mother could have being forced to carry a child from an act of absolute evil.

It's tricky. Which is why, ultimately, it should solely be up the woman.


Thx MM. Really, it wasn't that difficult to uncover. I think my mom is really grateful for the outcome as is the whole family or we simply wouldn't exist. In regards to the rest of what you said, I agree 100%. That's why I have always believed that an abortion in the case of rape is absolutely justified. In my mom's case, and ultimately our whole family's case, it was a happy ending. Believe me, I say that very humbly.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 1:53:22 PM

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I had one and the guilt eats away at your soul...I'm Catholic so it was a rough time for my whole family...Years later I went to confession and did what I had to do to get it off my soul...God forgave me that day I will never forget the wonderful feeling i had and I just knew it was time to let all the pain go. I wish I never had one but I know God and my family and myself have forgiven what I did so very long ago. My opinion would be to not do it. I never knew how hard it would be to live with what I did. For years I cried and wouldn't let myself be happy I missed out on having a family. God showed me a differant path to follow we adoted two cats that needed a home. I will always miss the baby I could of had and one day I will meet her in heaven.
Wilful
Posted: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 5:45:10 PM

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If I may join this discussion with my penis and offer my opinion.

I’ve read through all 13 pages, and more than anything, I very much want to thank those who have shared their personal and difficult stories. I know for a fact that bravery and honesty helps others who have gone through similar experiences. But more than anything, they illustrate how incredibly complex this issue is. It’s not black and white, and thinking in such absolutes is so destructive.

Imagine how the world would be if we all offered compassion, support and empathy, rather than judgement.

My own life has been shaped by abortion. I deeply miss the love of those I have never known. Without the termination of a life-threatening pregnancy, I would never have known the very special love I have today. And on both counts, I still witness the psychological torment of those decisions.

While I know that considerable pressure was brought to bear in some of those cases, I am in no position to judge. I wasn’t there. I believe decisions of morality are up to the individual, where it doesn’t hurt anyone else, such as marriage equality for example.

I know, hurting anyone else, right? As others have said, the science shows that a foetus’s development and ability to survive outside the womb on its own is at about the six month mark. A life started isn’t necessarily a life begun. It may be a justification, but it’s my opinion.

I greatly respect’ Clum’s views, and even his lofty ideals. It’s not naive to have such ambitions, it’s foolish to not try. But I’m afraid I have to disagree on men having an equal say. Decisions are made by those who show up, and until we have our feet in the stirrups with our junk hanging out, we have to wait on the sidelines.

I see my role as a man to be completely supportive of my partner. I would worry terribly about the influence my opinions in such a situation might have, especially given my wife’s inclination for people pleasing. I think it’s important that she considered everything, as she is prone not to do, and I would validate the thoughts she had and support the decision she made, so that she wouldn’t have to take on the burden alone.

From there, it’s just about accepting the decision and making the most of it. You have to let go of everything else, because either way, there’s still a life that has to be lived.

Please check out my latest story, Kibeho
adagio_sabadicus
Posted: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 6:04:12 PM

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Keep religion and politics out of it and let the lady make the choice. A no brainer.
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