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Question regarding the compound sentence

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As we all know, the compound sentence consists of two or more independent clauses joined by either a semi colon or one of the seven coordinating conjunctions. For those of you not familiar with the seven coordinating conjunctions, a great acronym I used to use to remember them by is FANBOYS.

F -- For
A -- And
N -- Nor
B -- But
O -- Or
Y -- Yet
S -- So

First let me show you example of the compound sentence.

"My roses have begun to bloom, for summer has arrived."

Notice how I've used a comma, plus the coordinating conjunction "for", to separate the two independent clauses.

I've always been of the belief that independent clauses fused with a FANBOYS conjunction should always be separated by a comma and have implemented this into my writing over the years.

Recently, someone tried to convince me that placing a comma before the conjunction "and " is bad practice and done, more often then not, as a rule of thumb.

My question to authors: Is there any case in which a comma would NOT be necessary when fusing two independent clauses with a coordinating conjunction. If so, would you please give me an example.

There are many intelligent and talented authors on this site, and I would love to hear your thoughts.
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i've also always been told that you shouldn't put a comma before "but," but in practice it often doesn't look right to me without one.

(the way that sentence worked out was a happy little accident.)
Liz
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Quote by tiddlywink
My question to authors: Is there any case in which a comma would NOT be necessary when fusing two independent clauses with a coordinating conjunction.


Don't think so. You should always use a comma when the second independent clause in a sentence begins with a coordinating conjunction.

You could also conjoin the clauses with a semi-colon and an independent clause marker.

"Liz walked in wearing nothing but a leopard print thong; consequently, the English lecturer fainted."
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Quote by mrd82
i've also always been told that you shouldn't put a comma before "but," but in practice it often doesn't look right to me without one.

(the way that sentence worked out was a happy little accident.)


What, the sentence at the end? No, I did that as an example.

I was wondering whether anyone would notice.

Well observed, my friend.
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Quote by Liz


Don't think so. You should always use a comma when the second independent clause in a sentence begins with a coordinating conjunction.

You could also conjoin the clauses with a semi-colon and an independent clause marker.

"Liz walked in wearing nothing but a leopard print thong; consequently, the English lecturer fainted."


Yes, thank you ever so much for your reply, Liz, that's what I thought.

And you're quite correct in pointing out that a semicolon could be considered as a substitute for the coordinating conjunction.

In which case my sentence would read, "My roses have begun to bloom; summer has arrived".

Perfect!
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Another question, if I may. How do I get the italics working?

It doesn't seem to work for me.
Liz
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Quote by tiddlywink
Another question, if I may. How do I get the italics working?

It doesn't seem to work for me.


Highlight the text you wish to italicise and click the 'I' symbol on the toolbar.



It should encapsulate the text in tags which look like this:

[code]What do you call a bear with no teeth? A gummy bear.[/code]

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Quote by Liz


Don't think so. You should always use a comma when the second independent clause in a sentence begins with a coordinating conjunction.

You could also conjoin the clauses with a semi-colon and an independent clause marker.

"Liz walked in wearing nothing but a leopard print thong; consequently, the English lecturer fainted."



Oh, I see what you mean. You've used the adverb "consequently" as an independent clause marker. Yes, I've seen this done before with adverbs such as "therefore" and "however".

Would I be right in assuming that if a comma was used instead of a semicolon before the adverb "consequently", this would constitute a "comma splice"? One of the most commonly made mistakes in English grammar.

If I'm talking rubbish, please say so. I promise that I won't be offended.
dpw
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Quote by mrd82
i've also always been told that you shouldn't put a comma before "but," but in practice it often doesn't look right to me without one.

(the way that sentence worked out was a happy little accident.)

But there is a comma in the wrong place. It should be "but", and not "but,".
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Quote by dpw

But there is a comma in the wrong place. It should be "but", and not "but,".


Oh, Derek, you're so naughty.
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I often see comma splices when people try to use conjunctive adverbs such as "furthermore, however, consequently," instead of coordinating conjunctions to join independent clauses.

It's worth noting that only periods and semicolons are strong enough to separate independent clauses without a coordinating conjunction.

Liz's sentence was perfect. "Liz walked in wearing nothing but a leopard print thong; consequently, the English lecturer fainted."

Notice how she used a semicolon to separate the two clauses and the adverb "consequently" to denote the clause.

"Liz walked in wearing nothing but a leopard print thong; consequently, I was rather excited."
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Thank you for your advice regarding the italics, Liz. They seem to be working perfectly.
dpw
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Quote by tiddlywink


Oh, Derek, you're so naughty.

Naughty but nice, lol.
It's right though. It isn't direct speech.
dpw
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Quote by tiddlywink
I often see comma splices when people try to use conjunctive adverbs such as "furthermore, however, consequently," instead of coordinating conjunctions to join independent clauses.

It's worth noting that only periods and semicolons are strong enough to separate independent clauses without a coordinating conjunction.

Liz's sentence was perfect. "Liz walked in wearing nothing but a leopard print thong; consequently, the English lecturer fainted."

Notice how she used a semicolon to separate the two clauses and the adverb "consequently" to denote the clause.

"Liz walked in wearing nothing but a leopard print thong; consequently, I was rather excited."

You do realise that the phrase comma spicing is a relatively new addition to English grammar.
The major problem that writers face is deciding when a clause is indepentent.
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Quote by dpw

Naughty but nice, lol.
It's right though. It isn't direct speech.


Yes, I know. It's an easy mistake to make, especially when typing fast.

I did the same thing in my last post.
LikeToWrite
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Quote by Liz


Don't think so. You should always use a comma when the second independent clause in a sentence begins with a coordinating conjunction.

You could also conjoin the clauses with a semi-colon and an independent clause marker.

"Liz walked in wearing nothing but a leopard print thong; consequently, the English lecturer fainted."


The first part of my comment is directed to Liz. We’ve all been wondering where you got that ‘devilish little smile’ from and that ‘glint’ in your eye. Now you a have finally given yourself away, when you wrote, ‘Liz walked in wearing nothing but a leopard print thong; consequently, the English lecturer fainted.’ There really is a ‘little devil’ in you, isn’t there? LOL

Okay, now I have a question for all you English language experts, suppose she had written ‘Liz walked in wearing nothing but a leopard print thong; the English lecturer fainted.’ I removed the word ‘consequently’, so would this sentence still be correct?

Now I want to offer my apology to Liz. I’m sure you are a very sweet lady, without any sign of a devil in your words or thoughts.
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Quote by tiddlywink


What, the sentence at the end? No, I did that as an example.

I was wondering whether anyone would notice.

Well observed, my friend.


ha, i actually meant my sentence (comma before "but") but yours applies as well (comma before "and").
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Quote by dpw

But there is a comma in the wrong place. It should be "but", and not "but,".


i disagree, but that's because i'm in the U.S.
dpw
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Quote by mrd82


i disagree, but that's because i'm in the U.S.

The quotation marks signify a quote and not direct speech. Therefore the punctuation belongs outside. US or UK it's the same rule.
Check up on me if you don't believe me. I'm right about this.
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okay, i will disagree with you on that. the logic is sound, but in the states we put the quotation marks outside the punctuation regardless of whether it makes sense to do so.
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Quote by HopefullAuthor


The first part of my comment is directed to Liz. We’ve all been wondering where you got that ‘devilish little smile’ from and that ‘glint’ in your eye. Now you a have finally given yourself away, when you wrote, ‘Liz walked in wearing nothing but a leopard print thong; consequently, the English lecturer fainted.’ There really is a ‘little devil’ in you, isn’t there? LOL

Okay, now I have a question for all you English language experts, suppose she had written ‘Liz walked in wearing nothing but a leopard print thong; the English lecturer fainted.’ I removed the word ‘consequently’, so would this sentence still be correct?

Now I want to offer my apology to Liz. I’m sure you are a very sweet lady, without any sign of a devil in your words or thoughts.


Yes, it would.

Without consequently the sentence would still be two independent clauses conjoined by a semicolon. A perfectly good compound sentence.

Consequently is an add on. In this case it's being used as an illative conjunction and draws conclusion from the first clause.

I'd like Liz to confirm that, though.
Dani
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Quote by mrd82
okay, i will disagree with you on that. the logic is sound, but in the states we put the quotation marks outside the punctuation regardless of whether it makes sense to do so.


That's not how I learned it. I was born/raised in the states, and learned English here in the states.

The only time punctuation goes inside the quotation marks is if it's a comma (and a period, if I'm not mistaken). Things like titles and such don't need punctuation inside the quotation marks.

Ex: Have you ever read the book "A Tale of Two Cities"?
Ex: Billy was distracted while reading "A Tale of Two Cities," which is why he didn't answer his phone.

As far as the 'regardless of logic' bit, I searched online for a reference and found that the reason commas go inside quotation marks is because placing commas inside of the quotations was more convenient in terms of printing in the olden days because of the way the printing mechanism was built. Apparently it smudged the paper if you typed a quotation mark and then a comma. So there's really no logic to it, lol.

Even standardized testing guidelines (ACT, SAT, GRE, etc.) teach to place irrelevant punctuation outside of the quotation marks, with the exception of the comma (and the period, I believe).

░P░U░S░S░Y░ ░I░N░ ░B░I░O░


dpw
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Quote by mrd82
okay, i will disagree with you on that. the logic is sound, but in the states we put the quotation marks outside the punctuation regardless of whether it makes sense to do so.

Okay, you can disagree. The rules of grammar don't differ across the pond.
Honestly, check it out. If I'm wrong, I'll apologise.
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i don't need an apology, you didn't say anything insulting. that said:
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Quote by dpw

You do realise that the phrase comma spicing is a relatively new addition to English grammar.
The major problem that writers face is deciding when a clause is indepentent.


An independent clause is a sentence that contains a subject and verb and can stand by itself and make perfect sense. Also known as a simple sentence. I'll show you an example.

"I like sex".

This is a simple sentence. It consists of one independent clause. We know it's an independent clause because it has a subject and a verb (or predicate,if you like) makes sense by itself and expresses a complete thought.

"I" is the subject. "Like" is the verb. "Sex" is the object.
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Quote by Dani


That's not how I learned it. I was born/raised in the states, and learned English here in the states.

The only time punctuation goes inside the quotation marks is if it's a comma (and a period, if I'm not mistaken). Things like titles and such don't need punctuation inside the quotation marks.

Ex: Have you ever read the book "A Tale of Two Cities"?
Ex: Billy was distracted while reading "A Tale of Two Cities," which is why he didn't answer his phone.

As far as the 'regardless of logic' bit, I searched online for a reference and found that the reason commas go inside quotation marks is because placing commas inside of the quotations was more convenient in terms of printing in the olden days because of the way the printing mechanism was built. Apparently it smudged the paper if you typed a quotation mark and then a comma. So there's really no logic to it, lol.

Even standardized testing guidelines (ACT, SAT, GRE, etc.) teach to place irrelevant punctuation outside of the quotation marks, with the exception of the comma (and the period, I believe).


ah, you're right about that, especially with titles. i guess i should have clarified, i was referring more to commas (and the rule applies to periods but in this context i was talking about commas) than to punctuation overall. with things like titles, punctuation would only go inside the quotation marks if the punctuation is part of the title.
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Allow me to explain the complex sentence.

A complex sentence has an independent clause accompanied by one or more dependant clauses (subordinate clause) and will contain at least one subordinating conjunction.

An example, "He and Donna had sex after they were married".

The independent clause here is "He and Donna had sex." It stands alone, expresses a complete thought and contains a verb and a noun performing the verb.

"He and Donna" is the subject. "Had sex" is the predicate."



The dependant clause is "after they were married".

We know this a secondary clause because it contains another subject and predicate. However, it does NOT stand alone or express a complete thought or idea. It relies solely on the independent clause in order for it to make sense. This is why it is known as the dependant clause -- it's dependant.

We also have the subordinating conjunction "after" which joins the dependant clause to the independent clause.



Now this where it gets really interesting. We can turn the sentence around and have our subordinate clause at the beginning of the sentence.

Are you ready? Hold on to your hats!

"After they were married, he and Donna had sex".
sprhr2
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I used to write with the comma because it's how I would say it. I would pause if I said "I like to read erotic stories <pause> but she likes to write them." Because of the way I spoke, I would try to use punctuation to make it 'read' the way I would speak it. "I like to read erotic stories, but she likes to write them." Doing a LOT of writing with a very particular professor I learned that I over use commas (for instance, I just tried to put one in between "professor" and "I" in the last sentence but took it out. I actually just tried to put it between "sentence" and "but" as well! Damn you academia!). My over use of commas also was related to my propensity to have run on sentences...

Whether or not it is correct, I have been instructed not to use commas like that and will continue to personally cut back my usage. At least until my thesis is complete and I brain dump all this. smile Thanks for bringing up grammar in the arena of erotic stories, where a) I will actually care a lot more than an academic setting and b) it will improve the writing of said stories!
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Allow me to give my opinion on the subject of punctuation and inverted commas.


First let me show you an example of when the punctuation should be placed inside the inverted commas.

"I had great sex last night," he announced.

The comma is part of the dialogue and should be placed inside the inverted commas.


Now outside the inverted commas.

Last night I read a book called "Nineteen Eighty-four ".

In this example the full stop should be placed outside the inverted commas.


I wish I could explain it better, but it's midnight and I'm awfully tired.
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Allow me to give my opinion on the subject of punctuation and inverted commas.


First let me show you an example of when the punctuation should be placed inside the inverted commas.

"I had great sex last night," he announced.

The comma is part of the dialogue and should be placed inside the inverted commas.


Now outside the inverted commas.

Last night I read a book called "Nineteen Eighty-four ".

In this example the full stop should be placed outside the inverted commas.


I wish I could explain it better, but it's midnight and I'm awfully tired.