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Mr. and mrs

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Guest
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When I was at school, about a million years ago, I remember bring told that 'Mr.' Is written with a capital M and has a full stop at the end. mrs is written with s small 'm' and has no full stop at the end.

My iPad is writing 'mrs' with a capital. Have things changed over the years? Maybe it has something to do with equality. Is it grammatically correct to use the capital 'M'?

Is there anything written in the Oxford Grammar guide, or is it just a style that has become the norm with modern day English usage?

Thank you...
Guest
Lurker
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Thank you Nicola. Perhaps I'm mistaken. Maybe it was just the full stop after 'Mrs' that is omitted?

Thank you for the Grammar links though, very useful...

Regards.
Wilful
Devil's Advocate
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I won't post a resource, lest I'm wrong, but I don't think you need a full stop for either. Mr Smith and Mrs Jones are just fine by me. Call it the evolution of language.

Having said that, as a moderator, I'll approve a story with full stops, as long as they're consistent throughout.
My latest story is a racy little piece about what happens when someone cute from work invites you over to watch Netflix and Chill.
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Quote by Wilful
I won't post a resource, lest I'm wrong, but I don't think you need a full stop for either. Mr Smith and Mrs Jones are just fine by me. Call it the evolution of language.

Having said that, as a moderator, I'll approve a story with full stops, as long as they're consistent throughout.


Thank you for that.
NymphWriter
Unicorn Wrangler
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Quote by purpleshade
When I was at school, about a million years ago, I remember bring told that 'Mr.' Is written with a capital M and has a full stop at the end. mrs is written with s small 'm' and has no full stop at the end.

My iPad is writing 'mrs' with a capital. Have things changed over the years? Maybe it has something to do with equality. Is it grammatically correct to use the capital 'M'?

Is there anything written in the Oxford Grammar guide, or is it just a style that has become the norm with modern day English usage?

Thank you...


That has to be a first for me to see. I'm sure this was the case at one time, but now both are capitalized and given a period at the end. Both Mr. and Mrs. are seen as abbreviations for mister and misses. They are also part of a person's title, like (and I'll use Wilful's excellent example here) Mr. Smith and Mrs. Jones. The periods here are not a "full stop" as you mention, but an identification that you are using an abbreviation. Much like Dr. is an abbreviation for doctor. So, when I talk about Dr. Who, or Dr. Spock, I am using the word doctor as part of their name, their title.

This is how I've been teaching this for over ten years. However, if someone can find a resource that says otherwise, please let me know. Trust me, I need to be aware of changes in the writing industry.
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Thank you for all the replies. I probably misunderstood things when I was at school. Like I said before, I have learned a great deal from this site.

A big thank you to Lush, the Moderators, and all the members....

Regards,

Purple.
HeraTeleia
Top Shot
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Quote by nicola!
I've never seen "mrs" with a lower case m!


Neither have I, except for instances of textspeak. Mr., Mrs., Ms.

If one wants to be absolutely correct, the "Mrs." must be used with the husband's name...as in, "Mrs. Robert J. Walker". This is where the "Ms." comes into play--it is used only with the woman's name. Even if the woman in the marriage has a doctorate, she is properly referred to (at least in formal letters or announcements) as "Mr. and Dr. Robert J. Walker" or "Dr. and Dr. Robert J. Walker".
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NymphWriter
Unicorn Wrangler
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Quote by HeraTeleia
Neither have I, except for instances of textspeak. Mr., Mrs., Ms.

If one wants to be absolutely correct, the "Mrs." must be used with the husband's name...as in, "Mrs. Robert J. Walker". This is where the "Ms." comes into play--it is used only with the woman's name. Even if the woman in the marriage has a doctorate, she is properly referred to (at least in formal letters or announcements) as "Mr. and Dr. Robert J. Walker" or "Dr. and Dr. Robert J. Walker".


While I totally agree with you... I must say how much it bugs me to only be know as my husband's wife. I have two degrees and he has none. I currently make more money (annual income wise). Even my own colleges sends all correspondence to him... and I'm the alumnus. I'm not blaming you HT... you're are just bringing up a fact. Maybe one day the sexist attitudes will change and the wife's name will be first if she's the major bread winner or the one with the higher degree.

Think about this... if (and I stress the word IF) Hilary Clinton were to become the 45th president... I doubt we'd refer to her & Bill as Mr. & Pres. William Clinton... I'd hope we'd say, Pres. and Mr. Hilary Clinton. But honestly... I don't want her to win (and I'll admit that's way off topic... but it was an easy way to make a quick point.)
LaylaJune
Fancy Schmancy
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Mr. and Mrs. are both abbreviations. "Mr." for Master (originally) and "Mrs." for Mistress. I have never seen either not capitalized.
Guest
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LJ....there is always a first time mr and mrs
NymphWriter
Unicorn Wrangler
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Quote by LaylaJune
Mr. and Mrs. are both abbreviations. "Mr." for Master (originally) and "Mrs." for Mistress. I have never seen either not capitalized.


I stand corrected. Thank you LJ. I had been given misinformation, now I can explain it to my students correctly.

LaylaJune
Fancy Schmancy
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Quote by Missy4fun73
LJ....there is always a first time mr and mrs


I am thinking that would be mr and mrs e.e. cummings
LaylaJune
Fancy Schmancy
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Quote by NymphWriter


I stand corrected. Thank you LJ. I had been given misinformation, now I can explain it to my students correctly.




You are very welcome!
HeraTeleia
Top Shot
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Quote by NymphWriter
While I totally agree with you... I must say how much it bugs me to only be know as my husband's wife. I have two degrees and he has none. I currently make more money (annual income wise). Even my own colleges sends all correspondence to him... and I'm the alumnus. I'm not blaming you HT... you're are just bringing up a fact. Maybe one day the sexist attitudes will change and the wife's name will be first if she's the major bread winner or the one with the higher degree.

Think about this... if (and I stress the word IF) Hilary Clinton were to become the 45th president... I doubt we'd refer to her & Bill as Mr. & Pres. William Clinton... I'd hope we'd say, Pres. and Mr. Hilary Clinton. But honestly... I don't want her to win (and I'll admit that's way off topic... but it was an easy way to make a quick point.)


Eh, it's a throwback to when women literally were considered the property of their husbands. Your identity as an individual was subsumed into that of your husband. As for Ms. Clinton...it will be interesting, purely from a language standpoint, to see how she is referred to in formal announcements. Right now it's informally the President and First Lady, not 100% certain on more formal announcements. I would presume that it would just become the President and the President (since all Presidents of the United States are forever endowed with that title), but I really don't know. I'm sure a lot of language scholars are trying to sort that out right now.

Weirdly, your example (Mr. and Pres. William H. Clinton), probably comes very close to the mark, at least if you were to, say, be sending a wedding invitation, except that it would be Pres. and Pres. William H. Clinton. Don't really know, though.
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NymphWriter
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Quote by HeraTeleia
Eh, it's a throwback to when women literally were considered the property of their husbands. Your identity as an individual was subsumed into that of your husband. As for Ms. Clinton...it will be interesting, purely from a language standpoint, to see how she is referred to in formal announcements. Right now it's informally the President and First Lady, not 100% certain on more formal announcements. I would presume that it would just become the President and the President (since all Presidents of the United States are forever endowed with that title), but I really don't know. I'm sure a lot of language scholars are trying to sort that out right now.

Weirdly, your example (Mr. and Pres. William H. Clinton), probably comes very close to the mark, at least if you were to, say, be sending a wedding invitation, except that it would be Pres. and Pres. William H. Clinton. Don't really know, though.


You are right about if Hilary would win... it would be Pres. and Pres. I guess I'm just tired of not being recognized as myself, but my husband's spouse. If it were up to him... I'd always have top billing.
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There is a trend here in England these days where women are using hyphenated surnames after marriage. They put their surname first, then the Huband's with a hyphen.

Interestingly, a new movement is taking root where the husband is taking the wife's surname....
NymphWriter
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Quote by purpleshade
There is a trend here in England these days where women are using hyphenated surnames after marriage. They put their surname first, then the Huband's with a hyphen.

Interestingly, a new movement is taking root where the husband is taking the wife's surname....


I've seen women do that, but not men. It's nice to see that maybe the old stereotype is going by the wayside. I'm so not saying it's for everyone... but still... change can be a beautiful thing. Thank you for sharing that.
Buz
The Linebacker
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I was taught in school, in the USA, to write Mr., Mrs., or Ms. with an initial cap and a full stop and Miss without a full stop.
Mr.
Mrs.
Ms.
Miss

I noticed a long while back that many in the UK, Australia and such, do not use the full stop.

As a story moderator I/we accept both styles as long as they are consistent.
Buz
The Linebacker
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Quote by purpleshade
There is a trend here in England these days where women are using hyphenated surnames after marriage. They put their surname first, then the Huband's with a hyphen..


That is especially fun to see when their name comes out Small-Dick, Bigg-Peter, Harry-Leggs, Little-Head, etc.
Evie
Blackbird Supernova
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Quote by purpleshade
There is a trend here in England these days where women are using hyphenated surnames after marriage. They put their surname first, then the Huband's with a hyphen.

Interestingly, a new movement is taking root where the husband is taking the wife's surname....


Then there's the well established tradition in much of the Spanish speaking world to keep your name. I didn't change my name when I got married. Just another side of the coin.
Katherine
Nerdzilla
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Quote by RavenStar

Then there's the well established tradition in much of the Spanish speaking world to keep your name. I didn't change my name when I got married. Just another side of the coin.


I like the way the Spanish speakers do that, and that most of their children have two last names: one from their father and one from their mother instead of only the father's last name. It just makes sense.

Purple, I think the full stop after Mr and Mrs is dwindling these days but either way is acceptable.
Evie
Blackbird Supernova
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Quote by Delphi


I like the way the Spanish speakers do that, and that most of their children have two last names: one from their father and one from their mother instead of only the father's last name. It just makes sense.

Purple, I think the full stop after Mr and Mrs is dwindling these days but either way is acceptable.


Yes, my ssc has two last names on it, my dad's and my mom's. smile I'm happy with it.
NymphWriter
Unicorn Wrangler
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Quote by Delphi
I like the way the Spanish speakers do that, and that most of their children have two last names: one from their father and one from their mother instead of only the father's last name. It just makes sense.

Purple, I think the full stop after Mr and Mrs is dwindling these days but either way is acceptable.


The dual last names only becomes an issue when the schools recognize one... and the kids would prefer to use the other (and the reason as to why varies among the children.) I had a Hawaiian student with two last names. The school used one, he preferred the other. I had to put the first initial of his preferred last name in my grade book, but his name where it landed on the roster (I had two boys with the same first name) to find him easier. I never asked why he used one over the other (didn't really think it was any of my business.)

I have nothing against this... I just wanted to share when this can be a bit of challenge for some. Mostly teachers. To me... if a kid wants to use the 2nd last name... let them. They have their reasons. So long as they understand the schools will list them by the first one, we'll be fine.
overmykneenow
Active Ink Slinger
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At school I was told to use full stops for abbreviations, when I started working in publishing in the early 90s I was told to never use them.

They're messy, especially at the end of a sentence (eg, "In 1972, they joined the E.E.C..").
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RumpleForeskin
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Different style manuals handle punctuation differently. The AP style book probably prefers no period marks following common abbreviations. The Chicago Manual of Style probably gives either no preference or leans toward the use of periods. As Buz, Nic, and other folks-who-should-know have mentioned, the important thing is to be consistent.

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Here's how I was taught, though I do believe rules differ as to which side of the drink you live on.


If you are using initials to represent each word, you should NOT put a full stop after them.

Example:

BBC

FIFA

NATO

NBA



If the abbreviation consists of the first and last letter of a word, we do NOT use a full stop.

Example:

Ms

Mr

Ltd

Dr


However, if the abbreviation consists of just the first part of the word, you should use a full stop at the end.

Examples:

Prof. (Meaning professor)

Doc. (Meaning doctor)

Mon. (Meaning Monday)

Jan. (Meaning January)