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Apostrophes - do they matter?

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Are apostrophes important?

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Seriously, you need to get out more! (0 votes) 0%
They are a crucial part of the English language (28 votes) 122%
They should be correct but it's no big deal (0 votes) 0%
Head Penguin
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From reading some story submissions and looking at the various signs on shops and so on, it seems that a large minority, if not a majority of people don't understand how and when to use the apostrophe.

The way I see it, is that a lot of folk have never really got to grips with the apostrophe, but as it's been raised in the media, it's in the back of people's minds. So when they come to write words that end in an 's' they think, 'Well, I know there's this apostrophe thing, so I'll stick one in here, just to be on the safe side.'

This leads to sign like the one below:






This is a particularly bad case, and to be fair to Lush writers, I feel we're better than average.


Adding unwanted apostrophes to words ending in an 's' seems to be the prevalent error, but it works both ways, as in the sign below:







This type of error is less frequent, but that might be because signs using the genitive or possessive case are just less common than plurals.


But after all is said and done, does it matter? Are apostrophes the preserve of grammar and punctuation geeks like me, or should we be making a point of sorting them out and encouraging their correct use? Would anyone go as far as to challenge a shopkeeper on their sign, if it contains a misuse of the apostrophe?


D x

A First Class Service Ch.5

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Apostrophes are hella important. They should always be correct. I'm unlikely to go into a café which has a missing/incorrect apostrophe on its sign. Mistakes do happen (been there, still am there sometimes!) but really, you should put in maximum effort.
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Of course, apostrophes matter! But then, good grammar and spelling in general is important, particularly for anyone aspiring to be a writer. Think of it as the difference between helping your uncle, Jack, off a horse; and helping your uncle jack off a horse.

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The Right Rev of Lush
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Punctuation marks did not evolve as a tool for OCD high school English teachers to use in browbeating students...honest. The apostrophy has a job. Failure to use it when needed or incorrectly can lead to confusion which is never a goodness when trying to communicate via the written word, imo.

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Gravelly-Voiced Fucker
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Apostrophe's are the devils punctuation mark. There are no apostrophe's in the Bible! Go look, I'll wait.
"insensitive prick!" – Danielle Algo
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Seeing a lot of bad examples doesn't make it easier if English is not your first language to start with. Then again, many of those examples may be from people for who it's not their first.

We have something similar in Dutch with spaces, where writing words separate that should be combined gives a whole different meaning. Many people make mistakes like that, including those for whom Dutch is their mother tongue. But reading a lot of English, where words are hardly ever combined to one new word, makes it seem more natural to keep them apart in Dutch as well I guess. It gets even more difficult when some words are burrowed from English, which is the case with a lot of new words.


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Head Penguin
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Quote by noll
Seeing a lot of bad examples doesn't make it easier if English is not your first language to start with. Then again, many of those examples may be from people for who it's not their first.

We have something similar in Dutch with spaces, where writing words separate that should be combined gives a whole different meaning. Many people make mistakes like that, including those for whom Dutch is their mother tongue. But reading a lot of English, where words are hardly ever combined to one new word, makes it seem more natural to keep them apart in Dutch as well I guess. It gets even more difficult when some words are burrowed from English, which is the case with a lot of new words.


Thanks. Didn't know you were Dutch. I go to Holland a lot x

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Quote by DanielleX
Thanks. Didn't know you were Dutch. I go to Holland a lot x


Oh but then it's time to learn it's the Netherlands, not Holland, though that might be the part of the country you're visiting then ;)
You go there for work or for pleasure?


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Head Penguin
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Quote by noll


Oh but then it's time to learn it's the Netherlands, not Holland, though that might be the part of the country you're visiting then ;)
You go there for work or for pleasure?


Pleasure. We stay on Texel in a little cottage on the east coast. Me and my girlfriend went there for a wedding in 2014 and fell in love with the island. I was told that it was Holland. What's the difference?

D x

A First Class Service Ch.5

A steamy lesbian three way

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Apostrophes matter very much, moreso than something like an Oxford comma. I'm fairly careful about them but slip up from time to time, with the infamous "its-it's" being my main poison.
Lurker
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edit. never mind.
Lurker
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Quote by DanielleX


Pleasure. We stay on Texel in a little cottage on the east coast. Me and my girlfriend went there for a wedding in 2014 and fell in love with the island. I was told that it was Holland. What's the difference?

D x



Holland is a region of the Netherlands, pretty much along the lines of what we'd (Brits) would call Wessex, the South West, the North East etc

As for apostrophes? Yes they're important. I was always taught that they show 'belonging' or ownership. e.g. Danielle's story. Confusion reigns supreme when it comes to singular or plural ownership:

The boy's toys (singular) The boys' toys (plural) then we see the rats leave the ship! smile
"insensitive prick!" – Danielle Algo
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Quote by DanielleX


Pleasure. We stay on Texel in a little cottage on the east coast. Me and my girlfriend went there for a wedding in 2014 and fell in love with the island. I was told that it was Holland. What's the difference?

D x


Texel is actually part of Holland. Holland consists of two Dutch provinces: North and South Holland. It's only a small part of the Netherlands.



Ah, Simon addressed this already.

Back to apostrophes now.


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Quote by DanielleX

Pleasure. We stay on Texel in a little cottage on the east coast. Me and my girlfriend went there for a wedding in 2014 and fell in love with the island. I was told that it was Holland. What's the difference?

D x

Quote by Noll

Texel is actually part of Holland. Holland consists of two Dutch provinces: North and South Holland. It's only a small part of the Netherlands.


To answer the original question, I think apostrophes are very important, along with all the other punctuation marks. As noted by a previous reader, the meaning of a sentence can easily be changed, and therefor misunderstood, by a misplaced comma. There is a reason they are part of the language. They all play a vital role in good communication.

Thank you, Danielle and Noll for the geography lesson. Like you Danielle, I’ve always been under the impression that Holland and The Netherlands were one and the same place, with Holland being by far the most common name. I can remember when I was in grade school reading about ‘Holland’, with its canals, dikes, flowers and windmills. I’ve often wished I had a chance to visit there sometime and see some of those things for myself. A cottage on the east coast sounds so very romantic. Who knows Danielle, maybe someday I’ll end up in the cottage next door and you’ll invite me over for a cuppa tea… I can only wish.

With both of us being unsure about the proper use of those two names means the ago old saying of ‘Great minds think alike’, must be true. Only problem is that my mind isn’t quite so great nor is it housed in such a beautiful body. Mine doesn’t have that super talent for putting words together in a grand fashion like yours does. I guess I’ll have to settle for that cottage.
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Quote by LikeToWrite
Thank you, Danielle and Noll for the geography lesson. Like you Danielle, I’ve always been under the impression that Holland and The Netherlands were one and the same place, with Holland being by far the most common name. I can remember when I was in grade school reading about ‘Holland’, with its canals, dikes, flowers and windmills. I’ve often wished I had a chance to visit there sometime and see some of those things for myself. A cottage on the east coast sounds so very romantic. Who knows Danielle, maybe someday I’ll end up in the cottage next door and you’ll invite me over for a cuppa tea… I can only wish.

With both of us being unsure about the proper use of those two names means the ago old saying of ‘Great minds think alike’, must be true. Only problem is that my mind isn’t quite so great nor is it housed in such a beautiful body. Mine doesn’t have that super talent for putting words together in a grand fashion like yours does. I guess I’ll have to settle for that cottage.


Lucky for you the best chance to find an east coast in the Netherlands is probably on Texel. As the country is on the north-western side of the European main land we don't have much east coast ;)

Many Dutch people use Holland and Netherlands interchangeably too, especially in English. It's still wrong though.


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Quote by Danielle

Pleasure. We stay on Texel in a little cottage on the east coast. Me and my girlfriend went there for a wedding in 2014 and fell in love with the island. I was told that it was Holland. What's the difference?


Quote by noll

Lucky for you the best chance to find an east coast in the Netherlands is probably on Texel. As the country is on the north-western side of the European main land we don't have much east coast ;)

Many Dutch people use Holland and Netherlands interchangeably too, especially in English. It's still wrong though.

When I first read Danielle’s posting where she said ‘We stay on Texel in a little cottage on the east coast.’, my first thought was that that can’t be. I know Holland (Netherlands) is part of Western Europe, so there can’t be an ‘east coast’. I went back and read her statement again, thinking I’d misread it. When I saw what she said, my next thought was that she had made a typing error, and meant to say west instead of east. I’d never heard of Texel before, but the phrase ‘on Texel’ should have given me a clue, but as I said in my posting, my mind isn’t to sharp. Not only that, but it’s been a long day, it’s late and I’m sleepy. Her next sentence of ‘…and fell in love with the island.’ cleared everything up. Now I knew how she could be on the east coast. Danielle, you saved yourself there.

Now all I need is a spy to let me know the next time she rents a cottage there so I can get one nearby. Sorry Danielle, but I couldn’t resist adding this remark.

Thanks again Noll, for your information. You are a good instructor.
If you're feeling bored during this Covid-19 epidemic I’d like to suggest
you take a peek at a story I collaborated with SueBrasil, a brilliant author.
It's about a mistake in judgment a lady makes concerning a friend, based
on the hurtful words of someone that only thinks of himself. Will that
conniving person succeed in ruining a beautiful friendship, or will she see
through his lies? It's gradually creeping up towards the 30,000 mark
and we’d love any votes or hearing whatever comments you may wish
to make. It is listed in my profile under ‘FAVOURITES’ as Apologize.

www.lushstories.com/stories/first-time/apologize.aspx
Head Penguin
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Quote by noll


Texel is actually part of Holland. Holland consists of two Dutch provinces: North and South Holland. It's only a small part of the Netherlands.



Ah, Simon addressed this already.

Back to apostrophes now.


I think you will get these anomalies, but I think this is a linguistic thing, not a geographical one. While it might be technically incorrect to say Holland when travelling to your country, everyone in England calls it Holland and knows it's The Netherlands. Really, shouldn't I say I'm travelling to Nederland?

This is a bit like objecting to people ordering a panini, when it's actually a panino? Some names and words become Anglicized.

Having said that, I'm grateful to you pointing this out. I kind of knew there was something about Holland being not right name, but this is the first time I've bothered to research it.

Dankjewel

D x

A First Class Service Ch.5

A steamy lesbian three way

Lurker
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Quote by DanielleX



This is a bit like objecting to people ordering a panini, when it's actually a panino? Some names and words become Anglicized.

Having said that, I'm grateful to you pointing this out. I kind of knew there was something about Holland being not right name, but this is the first time I've bothered to research it.

Dankjewel

D x



"Excuse me waiter, I think you dropped a raviolo on the floor."

Reminds me a little bit of when the Olympics were in Italy a few years ago. The city that in English had always been referred to as Turin (as in "shroud of") became "Torino" in the US coverage.

Seemed strange to me, as I'm not sure we would have heard about the "Firenze" Olympics or the "Venezia" Games, if the games had been held there.

Then again, we are constantly updating Anglicized geographical names to reflect current usage, or preference of the country in question.

Think Mumbai for Bombay, or Beijing for Peking.*

Or even Cote D'Ivoire. I believe that's the official country name, even in UN usage, and there is no longer formally any country named the Ivory Coast.

I recently asked Siri to tell me the times in some of these cities, using the outdated names. For "Bombay," she replied, telling me about Mumbai (there may have even been a snotty, "do you mean...?" For Peking, she didn't know what that was.
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Quote by noll


Texel is actually part of Holland. Holland consists of two Dutch provinces: North and South Holland. It's only a small part of the Netherlands.

Ah, Simon addressed this already.

Back to apostrophes now.


I didn't (there, I used a apostrophe to make my post on topic ) know this. My son's (note: If I left out the apostrophe there, it would not be clear how many sons I have, though I only have the one) best friend's Dad is a Dutch immigrant and I've just always used Netherlands around him so he's never had a chance to correct me. I did know it as "Holland" when I was a kid, but have known and used the proper name since at least university.
Lurker
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Was thinking about apostrophes as a result of this thread, and why they can be so difficult for so many.

Came up with a bunch of reasons:
-As people's usage gets weaker, there are fewer correct examples to see around as guides.

-There is anxiety associated with them, and adding an apostrophe when you're not sure probably feels like you're "doing something." Sort of a hyper-correction (i.e., error) along the lines of: "between you and I," or "I'll give a present to whomever cleans my garage."

-The plurals of certain names just look funny, so when you're addressing a letter to an entire family whose last name is, for example, "Hannity," writing, "The Hannitys" looks funny, as it contravenes one's general sense of making -y words plural in English. As a result, many write, "The Hannity's," because that seems better than what is more obviously wrong: "The Hannities." I think people assume that apostrophes can make plurals in situations like that, even when the name is simple, e.g., the "Carson's," when it should be the "Carsons."

(I even had an apostrophe added to one of my stories here in such a situation during the verification process. I had written something along the lines of, "...the Maldens live next door..." which got changed to, "the Malden's," before I requested that it be fixed back.)

Yes, apostrophes ought to be used correctly, but I think when we all ought to be gentle when we see mistakes, unless they are both glaring and crucial to understanding, or from people who really ought to know better. As I've gotten older, I've run into more and more people who have their own personal litmus tests for others' literacy. That is, mistakes that each person finds indicative of gross incompetence in English.

Such include:
-thinking that "bemused" is a synonym for "amused."
-"in and of itself"
-"at this point in time."
-not knowing the difference between disinterested / uninterested; continuous / continual; aureole / areola; sensuous / sensual; etc., etc.
-using "hopefully" to mean "I hope that," rather than, "in a hopeful manner."
-and about a gazillion more.


Realistically, very few of us are perfect on all of these, and who knows what invisible tripwires of others we are setting off, so always best, I think, to try to be gentle when you see someone else making a mistake. If it matters, and it's appropriate for you to point it out, do so. But to go looking for trouble? ("Dude, your sign's wrong").

I'm reminded of a classic joke.
"Excuse me, where's the cafeteria at?"
"At Harvard (or Oxford, or lushstories), we don't end our sentences with prepositions."
"Okay, where's the library at, asshole?"
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English is not my natural language, which is perhaps why I am so very careful, to the point of near-OCD obsession, with the use of oddities like apostrophes.

The flip side of this acute awareness of proper usage is that misuse of these oddities in stories, on this site or elsewhere, is that nothing brings me to a full stop whilst reading quite like a glaring mistake--for me, the placement of an apostrophe, or comma, or other punctuation mark, where none is needed or in an incorrect manner, will bring my brain to a full stop, making it nigh on impossible to continue with my reading. It is what it is.

So yes, apostrophes matter.
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i'm a part of the save the apostrophes movement. no seriously - save them. i hate to see them being used willy nilly. i believe people misplace them in an effort not to make grammatical errors.
.

Say. Her. Name.


Head Penguin
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Quote by LikeToWrite

When I first read Danielle’s posting where she said ‘We stay on Texel in a little cottage on the east coast.’, my first thought was that that can’t be. I know Holland (Netherlands) is part of Western Europe, so there can’t be an ‘east coast’. I went back and read her statement again, thinking I’d misread it. When I saw what she said, my next thought was that she had made a typing error, and meant to say west instead of east. I’d never heard of Texel before, but the phrase ‘on Texel’ should have given me a clue, but as I said in my posting, my mind isn’t to sharp. Not only that, but it’s been a long day, it’s late and I’m sleepy. Her next sentence of ‘…and fell in love with the island.’ cleared everything up. Now I knew how she could be on the east coast. Danielle, you saved yourself there.

Now all I need is a spy to let me know the next time she rents a cottage there so I can get one nearby. Sorry Danielle, but I couldn’t resist adding this remark.

Thanks again Noll, for your information. You are a good instructor.



It's a beautiful island with spectacular sandy beaches. It's very quiet where we stay. Out of our window we have a lake with birds and a lovely windmill. If I go out of the cottage and 100 metres I can look at the sea. The nearby village has a lovely pub with a beer garden. My favourite snack is pufetjers, which are a kind of mini pancake. You get about 10 with lashings of hot butter and icing sugar

D x

A First Class Service Ch.5

A steamy lesbian three way

Head Penguin
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Quote by oceanrunner
Was thinking about apostrophes as a result of this thread, and why they can be so difficult for so many.

Came up with a bunch of reasons:
-As people's usage gets weaker, there are fewer correct examples to see around as guides.

-There is anxiety associated with them, and adding an apostrophe when you're not sure probably feels like you're "doing something." Sort of a hyper-correction (i.e., error) along the lines of: "between you and I," or "I'll give a present to whomever cleans my garage."

-The plurals of certain names just look funny, so when you're addressing a letter to an entire family whose last name is, for example, "Hannity," writing, "The Hannitys" looks funny, as it contravenes one's general sense of making -y words plural in English. As a result, many write, "The Hannity's," because that seems better than what is more obviously wrong: "The Hannities." I think people assume that apostrophes can make plurals in situations like that, even when the name is simple, e.g., the "Carson's," when it should be the "Carsons."

(I even had an apostrophe added to one of my stories here in such a situation during the verification process. I had written something along the lines of, "...the Maldens live next door..." which got changed to, "the Malden's," before I requested that it be fixed back.)

Yes, apostrophes ought to be used correctly, but I think when we all ought to be gentle when we see mistakes, unless they are both glaring and crucial to understanding, or from people who really ought to know better. As I've gotten older, I've run into more and more people who have their own personal litmus tests for others' literacy. That is, mistakes that each person finds indicative of gross incompetence in English.

Such include:
-thinking that "bemused" is a synonym for "amused."
-"in and of itself"
-"at this point in time."
-not knowing the difference between disinterested / uninterested; continuous / continual; aureole / areola; sensuous / sensual; etc., etc.
-using "hopefully" to mean "I hope that," rather than, "in a hopeful manner."
-and about a gazillion more.


Realistically, very few of us are perfect on all of these, and who knows what invisible tripwires of others we are setting off, so always best, I think, to try to be gentle when you see someone else making a mistake. If it matters, and it's appropriate for you to point it out, do so. But to go looking for trouble? ("Dude, your sign's wrong").

I'm reminded of a classic joke.
"Excuse me, where's the cafeteria at?"
"At Harvard (or Oxford, or lushstories), we don't end our sentences with prepositions."
"Okay, where's the library at, asshole?"




Great post!

D x

A First Class Service Ch.5

A steamy lesbian three way

In-House Sapiosexual
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Of course apostrophes are important...


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Troublemaker
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I thought Apostrophe was a Greek philosopher...
Quantum Tease
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Quote by Verbal
Apostrophe's are the devils punctuation mark. There are no apostrophe's in the Bible! Go look, I'll wait.



1) That probably depends upon the particular translation.

2) I'm presuming that you transplanted the apostrophe from "devil's", where it is needed, to "apostrophes", where it is not, on purpose. You are subtle.



Another example at which I cringe is "CPU's", "TV's" and the like when plurality is intended.
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Quote by lynnwitt


1) That probably depends upon the particular translation.

2) I'm presuming that you transplanted the apostrophe from "devil's", where it is needed, to "apostrophes", where it is not, on purpose. You are subtle.



Another example at which I cringe is "CPU's", "TV's" and the like when plurality is intended.

Some of that is caused by the fact, that people's native language isn't English. In Dutch for instance, it's exactly the other way around; foto's translates to photos (plural) and Carlos to Carlo's (possessive).
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