Atractive people,with always attract other attactive people,and not so much attractive people.

Quote by She



Exactly.


I've turned down so many hot and attractive guys after few minutes of talking with them just because of their intentions and I have dated guys who weren't in my 'league' just because they were offering something I was interested in. Don't get me wrong, we all interact with others because we want something but if you want to get something you need to give as well. Of course this goes other way around as well.

Quote by ManofAdventure


I know....I'm fed up of hot women just wanting me for my body ;) it's not fair.

Quote by ManofAdventure
A gorgeous women might well "bother" with an average looking guy if that guy was confident, fun and interesting because those are attractive qualities. If you can make a woman laugh because you're funny (not retarded), she'll like you because you make her feel good. There's a bit more to it than that but those are the basics. Fun, interesting, average looking guys still stand a chance with attractive women-but if they don't think they do, then they're far more likely to fail. Women, in general, imo are more attracted to personality qualities over looks. So guys should be looking to capitalise on this,.

Quote by ManofAdventure


*Yawn*.....the above is nonsense that self proclaimed "nice guys" spew. The fact is, you're not really interested in talking to these women as a means to getting to know them or just having a fun conversation...you're only interested in where the talking gets you. Hence, you get no results because women know when a guy isn't truly interested in them. Of course, I also haven't ruled out the fact that you're REALLY boring.....hope that helps.

Quote by SereneProdigy


Well, the thing is this: what exactly prevents a handsome man from being confident, fun and interesting himself too? And in the case of a gorgeous woman who gets approached by dozens of different men on a daily basis, why exactly would she choose an average-looking guy with an 'interesting personality' when she can easily pick up an handsome man whose personality is just as interesting? Get real people, attractive women won't become 'magically charmed' simply because you're a decent guy that can hold their attention in a casual conversation: they'll still have dozens of other males they can compare you to in their previous encounters. There's a strong competition in seduction.

Here's an analogy with the height of hockey players. Sure, height isn't the sole factor that will determine the talents of a hockey player, but it's still a determinant factor. You could get in a similar naive line of thinking and say: "Height isn't significant whatsoever! If you have good skills, a sharp mind and are good at reading the game, any team will sign you up!". But the reality is that plenty of players across the world have good skills, a sharp mind and are good at reading the game. What becomes the discriminating factor then? Height and physicality (the average height of NHL players is around 6'1"-6'2", just so you know). Hell, you could motivate an aspiring 5'9" player that has good skills and tell him that height really isn't all that important (just like some people are doing here concerning looks), but the reality is that hundreds of other men will be competing against him for the same position, and that players with an average height of 5'8"-5'10" are a very thin minority in hockey leagues.

And here's another thing: interestingness, pleasantness and humor are all very good qualities, but up to a point what will get you to have sex with women is (surprise)... sex-appeal. Because frankly, you can be interesting and fun all you want, if that doesn't work toward your overall level of sexiness, you're just going to end being good friends with attractive women. Sure, these women will want you around, but why exactly would they feel the need to sleep with you when your qualities are already being fully offered to them in any friendly conversation?

That will be another subject for another time, but what will really provoke the most sex-appeal in men is their status (confidence is simply an indication of self-perceived status, in my forthright opinion). And honestly, according to my own experiences your outward appearance will have a prime role concerning the status that others will grant you. Just think about how other males gather around the tall/strong/handsome male in any group of males, and how they grant him an 'alpha' status: even before he'll approach women, that man will have a powerful status going on about him.

Quote by stephanie


Okay, People...

PERSPECTIVE...

(A YOUNG member bares his soul. Whom of US was cool at 20??? Not me, for sure...)

The key word here is ATTRACTIVE.

I bat WAY FUCKING WAY outside the park, and always have. I am NOT a good-looking guy, never have been. (Evidence available on this site!!!) But I AM ATTRACTIVE... Why?

Well, I'm basically a good guy. I'm VERY VERY funny. I'm quite smart. I have opinions I can talk about. I'm kind and I care for others. I'm TALENTED in a way that others seem impressed by. (I think it's just shit I do...) I have a certain style that, to be honest, puts some people off. But I carry it. (I am BEYOND insecure...) But that don't PLAY in the real world so you adapt... I, (and this is REALLY IMPORTANT!!!) love women. My best friends, (with a few exceptions...) are women. I'm in my 50s NOW, but I've always been FASCINATED and pleased by females. I AM NOT IN ANY WAY a "man's man"... (I know FUCK ALL about cars, GOLF or FOOTBALL or MEN STUFF!!!!) I can talk about nail varnish for hours...

I'm NOT the straightest guy in the world, but I'm straight. (?)

I'm not HALF as confident as I PRETEND. (But I pretend very well...) And this is interesting, 'cos where is THAT LINE, from SEEMING confident to BEING confident? (Fucked if I know...) But WOMEN value confidence above EVERY OTHER TRAIT in a man! (NOT arrogance, as someone said above, but a quiet self-assuredness...)

We all are unsure about a lot of things. About others, about ourselves indeed. There are NO PAT ANSWERS. Except ONE...

"TO THINE OWN SELF BE TRUE..."

I think it was VERY BRAVE of this young man to talk about his issue in public. He spoke HONESTLY, perhaps too honestly, but I think he sounds like a nice-if-perplexed young man.

I wish him well.

xx STEPH

Nicola: "Since WHEN are YOU nice???"

Me: "Fuck You. I'm cunting nice..."

Quote by stephanie


Okay, People...

PERSPECTIVE...

(A YOUNG member bares his soul. Whom of US was cool at 20??? Not me, for sure...)

The key word here is ATTRACTIVE.

I bat WAY FUCKING WAY outside the park, and always have. I am NOT a good-looking guy, never have been. (Evidence available on this site!!!) But I AM ATTRACTIVE... Why?

Well, I'm basically a good guy. I'm VERY VERY funny. I'm quite smart. I have opinions I can talk about. I'm kind and I care for others. I'm TALENTED in a way that others seem impressed by. (I think it's just shit I do...) I have a certain style that, to be honest, puts some people off. But I carry it. (I am BEYOND insecure...) But that don't PLAY in the real world so you adapt... I, (and this is REALLY IMPORTANT!!!) love women. My best friends, (with a few exceptions...) are women. I'm in my 50s NOW, but I've always been FASCINATED and pleased by females. I AM NOT IN ANY WAY a "man's man"... (I know FUCK ALL about cars, GOLF or FOOTBALL or MEN STUFF!!!!) I can talk about nail varnish for hours...

I'm NOT the straightest guy in the world, but I'm straight. (?)

I'm not HALF as confident as I PRETEND. (But I pretend very well...) And this is interesting, 'cos where is THAT LINE, from SEEMING confident to BEING confident? (Fucked if I know...) But WOMEN value confidence above EVERY OTHER TRAIT in a man! (NOT arrogance, as someone said above, but a quiet self-assuredness...)

We all are unsure about a lot of things. About others, about ourselves indeed. There are NO PAT ANSWERS. Except ONE...

"TO THINE OWN SELF BE TRUE..."

I think it was VERY BRAVE of this young man to talk about his issue in public. He spoke HONESTLY, perhaps too honestly, but I think he sounds like a nice-if-perplexed young man.

I wish him well.

xx STEPH

Nicola: "Since WHEN are YOU nice???"

Me: "Fuck You. I'm cunting nice..."

Quote by Hytherion
There are several traits in people which can be attractive.

Physical looks are only one. If you married a model, and she was tragically disfigured, would you stop loving her?

This is a very shallow topic and matches the age of the OP. So the implied answer is that the OP is shallow, and people attractive or otherwise can read that.

Quote by Shylass


Not as shallow (and fucking arrogant) as some of the other responders!

According to some, I should only be attempting to talk to the Jabba the Hutt's uglier, nastier twin if I want a relationship of any sort. Do you know how difficult it is to find somebody as unattractive as myself? Impossible. And those who already know the sorts of people I should approach will tell you that it is my lack of self-esteem that is the problem, not the ranks of Other Uglies. So be it.

I see the world very differently to many others, and struggle to talk to anybody for any reason, whether I term them "more" or "less" attractive than myself. I came to the point, shortly after joining Lush, where I realised that striving for something I couldn't find was only making the issue worse.

I realised, thanks to even individuals within this thread, that my outlook on life overall was more important than the details of things (and people) I can't understand or have. I've learned that, sometimes, just the vent (check out the Rage Cage) is enough. Other times, a distinct exploring of my feelings and the world around me is necessary. And sometimes, just the observation of others is enough to show me that often, the problem isn't always me. Sometimes, but not always.

It's what I choose to do about those things (or not) that makes the difference. With an adjustment of my world views, and self views, I've grown as a person (mostly), and all of us change with every passing minute in big and small ways.

The age group also has something to do with what you're venting about. As you all get a bit older and more mature (in some cases), you may find friendships and relationships much easier. The setting of where you strike up conversation may change, too.

If you think there is no hope, as I did, please believe that friendships, once won, will bring you joy. You just have to keep plodding through every day, and they will come into view when the other people are ready too.

Good luck!

https://www.lushstories.com/forum/yaf_postst19381_The-Rage-Cage.aspx

Quote by dpw

Your problem IS self esteem. At least that's what your posts seem to suggest. And, if you look in a mirror and only see the physical, you are being shallow.
If a man or woman only looks at the physical, they show a lack of intelligence. They are the ones to avoid!
At university I had a flatmate who was over 18 stone, certainly no Miss World. She had one of the bubbliest personalities I've ever come across. Lots of guys were attracted to her. She's been married for over 30 years now to a great looking guy.
You should let your intelligence, creativity and wit shine through. If they don't like you, they're not worth the bother.

Yeah, it's not just my looks. However, I'm getting through, and doing better. Listening, observing, analysing and practice (in good balance) have been helping me see myself in a different light. It takes time, just as relationships do.

Quote by Shylass


Yeah, it's not just my looks. However, I'm getting through, and doing better. Listening, observing, analysing and practice (in good balance) have been helping me see myself in a different light. It takes time, just as relationships do.

Quote by Shylass


Yeah, it's not just my looks. However, I'm getting through, and doing better. Listening, observing, analysing and practice (in good balance) have been helping me see myself in a different light. It takes time, just as relationships do.

Quote by stephanie


I once had a BALLS OUT argument IN REAL LIFE because my Lushie Girlfriend at that time QUITE CORRECTLY observed I have a THING for the SHYLASS...

Peyton Place here, betimes let me tell you!

(And it was in LEEDS... Like LEEDS could be More Shit...)

xx SF

SEVEN OTHER GIRLS ARE GOING, "I was never with you in LEEDS!!!"

(Well... I'm obviously talking about someone else then???)

Quote by Mysteria27




Leeds is a lovely City... YOU ARE A PRICK!

Mysteria....xo

Quote by stephanie


I once had a BALLS OUT argument IN REAL LIFE because my Lushie Girlfriend at that time QUITE CORRECTLY observed I have a THING for the SHYLASS...

Peyton Place here, betimes let me tell you!

(And it was in LEEDS... Like LEEDS could be More Shit...)

xx SF

SEVEN OTHER GIRLS ARE GOING, "I was never with you in LEEDS!!!"

(Well... I'm obviously talking about someone else then???)

Leeds could be more shit, trust me! When you're brand new to the city, stuck on the inner ring-road during rush hour just before Elland Road has a match (back when LUFC supporters didn't need to blush). THEN Leeds could be shittererer. I know, I do. It's worse than a fishing forum punch-up between the Devon lads over whether pissing off a crap pier dilutes the swim or not - it's ugly, messy, and nobody wants to be down wind of THAT pointless fall-out.

You only had a thing for me because I laughed at your jokes.

Quote by Naughtygrl73
I generally feel for the OP, I really do.

I've been on the receiving end of a few men trying to strike up a conversation cold. It's not easy and it's something that, as a woman, I've never needed to do, THANK GOD!

Realising how terrifying a prospect of starting a conversation must be, I've always endeavoured to be nice. Unfortunalty, some men see this as a open invitation to get a little friendlier. So, I understand why some women are immediately cold or in some cases cruel. It's not nice but sometimes, some men, refuse or are unable to read the subtle ( or not so subtle as the case may be) signals of a woman's disinterest.


Timing is everything, it's crucial. If women are in a group, laughing, having a great time, I'm assuming that men see this and want to join in...don't. Under no circumstances; it's like falling on a live grenade, messy.

Of course, this is dependent on the situation, girls on the prowl at a club will be more than willing to meet new people.

Women in groups, generally don't want men approaching, we are out having fun with our friends and to be approached by a man without any warning will generally result in simple answers and an attitude. I'm not saying this is right, but in general that's what you will get.

Some posters have mentioned meeting people through other friends; I have to echo this sentiment. When you're in a social situation where you're open and willing to meet new people, most women will take the time to involve themselves in conversation.

Of course looks play an important part in our initial attraction to someone. Its naive and rather silly to assume otherwise and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I'm sure you do it too, Lovingher17. But let me tell you, if you can make a woman laugh, be genuinely nice, looks will cease to be something she is focusing on. By all means change your style, there is nothing wrong with improving ones looks, but if your attitude is wrong, it will make little difference in the long run.

i think you may need to take a step back and seriously think about your approach.
You may think you're coming across as charming and interesting, but perhaps it's falling a little closer to being uncomfortable for those women you're approaching. Just think about it for a moment from her side.
She is with friends, they're having a fun time and then out of no where a man comes and injects himself into her conversation...
Anyway, something to think about.

One last point, you're dealing with young, immature women, not necessarily a nice species from memory; to men or each other. Give it time, hopefully they'll mature and you'll gain the skills needed to meet on a more level playing field.

Quote by She


lol, I think holder of this thread will start pulling his hair of his head after reading this. But yeah, poor you ;)

Quote by SereneProdigy


Well, the thing is this: what exactly prevents a handsome man from being confident, fun and interesting himself too? And in the case of a gorgeous woman who gets approached by dozens of different men on a daily basis, why exactly would she choose an average-looking guy with an 'interesting personality' when she can easily pick up an handsome man whose personality is just as interesting? Get real people, attractive women won't become 'magically charmed' simply because you're a decent guy that can hold their attention in a casual conversation: they'll still have dozens of other males they can compare you to in their previous encounters. There's a strong competition in seduction.

Here's an analogy with the height of hockey players. Sure, height isn't the sole factor that will determine the talents of a hockey player, but it's still a determinant factor. You could get in a similar naive line of thinking and say: "Height isn't significant whatsoever! If you have good skills, a sharp mind and are good at reading the game, any team will sign you up!". But the reality is that plenty of players across the world have good skills, a sharp mind and are good at reading the game. What becomes the discriminating factor then? Height and physicality (the average height of NHL players is around 6'1"-6'2", just so you know). Hell, you could motivate an aspiring 5'9" player that has good skills and tell him that height really isn't all that important (just like some people are doing here concerning looks), but the reality is that hundreds of other men will be competing against him for the same position, and that players with an average height of 5'8"-5'10" are a very thin minority in hockey leagues.

And here's another thing: interestingness, pleasantness and humor are all very good qualities, but up to a point what will get you to have sex with women is (surprise)... sex-appeal. Because frankly, you can be interesting and fun all you want, if that doesn't work toward your overall level of sexiness, you're just going to end being good friends with attractive women. Sure, these women will want you around, but why exactly would they feel the need to sleep with you when your qualities are already being offered to them fully in any friendly conversation?

That will be another subject for another time, but what will really provoke the most sex-appeal in men is their status (confidence is simply an indication of self-perceived status, in my forthright opinion). And honestly, according to my own experiences your outward appearance will have a prime role concerning the status that others will grant you. Just think about how other males gather around the tall/strong/handsome male in any group of males, and how they grant him an 'alpha' status: even before he'll approach women, that man will have a powerful status going on about him.

Quote by ManofAdventure
The main issue I have with your statement is that you aren't factoring in the effect that a great/killer personality has on how a woman perceives a man. That intially average looking guy can shoot up from a 5 to an 8. Then he's no longer average looking. Equally a really good looking guy who is boring as hell-and that's more common that you might think- can go from a 9 to a 5.

The other problem is that you're assuming that both people are equally matched personality-wise. That might be the case in a make believe scenario but in the real world, just how often does it happen that two guys personalities are identically funny/interesting/confident? 1% of the time. Maybe even less. And if that woman is soo happy with the attention she's getting off the vast majority of guys, why is there even a conversation? Simple fact of the matter is, most hot women are bored of being approached with the same crappy,generic lines and they're even more bored of the guys who approach them because often their opening line equates to "My god you're soo hot....I'd give my left nut to get with you"

I don't think I ever mentioned pleasantness as a desirable quality. If you act like a friend, you will get treated like a friend. I agree. I'm not saying be her friend. I made the mistake of not explaining myself fully because I knew what I meant. Maybe I should have expanded on it some more. If you want to have sex with her, don't kiss her ass before you're both naked. You've got to have sex appeal, yes. But sex-appeal is something you can develop. It's a vibe you give off. It's a sexual confidence you exude. It's not determined by height or eye colour. IMO sex appeal can be "gained" or developed because being good with women/ seducing them/ getting laid is a skill that can be learned, practicised and perfected. Similarly status is something you can gain. Just because the "halo" principle says that people automatically trust and gravitate towards good looking people etc, doesn't mean that only good looking people have status. You can cultivate success, confidence, presence and sex appeal.

Quote by SereneProdigy


I never said that a great personality doesn't factor in whatsoever concerning how women perceive men. I even witnessed it in my own life a few times: guys that weren't all that good-looking which for whatever reasons managed to attract women who were more beautiful than they were. But they were rare exceptions and not quite the rule of thumb, just like short hockey players like Theoren Fleury or Martin St-Louis managed to outclass taller players, and yet players of their heights (5'6"-5'8") aren't exactly common in the NHL.

And sorry to say, but your assumptions are in fact a lot more biased than mine. You're pretty much assuming that every average-looking guy will have a formidable personality that's going to stand out, while every handsome man is going to be some kind of superficial and retarded jerk. I can simply refer to the argument of my previous post here: what exactly prevents a handsome man from having a great personality himself too? And concerning your numerical example, what exactly prevents a handsome man from going from a 9 to a 12 if he has a great personality too?

Here's the initial level of attractiveness of both average-looking and handsome men, when only their appearance is considered:




Now let's see what happens when personality gets thrown in the mix, with a realistic impact of ±3 for both average-looking and handsome men:



You see what's happening here? Sure, a few average-looking men can compete against men that are much more handsome than they are in the 6-8 region, but overall, handsome men will still have the upper hand in the majority of cases. Not to mention that plenty of handsome men are going to be in the 'highly-attractive region' (9+), which is pretty much where those equally highly-attractive women will seek a partner, while very few average-looking guys are going to be up there.

And no, I'm not imagining a make-believe scenario where two men of different appearances will have the exact same personality; I'm assuming that personality will have the exact same impact on both average-looking and handsome men, and that generally speaking, you're still going to end up with handsome men being a lot more attractive. And that's without mentioning that handsome men will in fact be a lot more advantaged toward personality, according to their life experiences: just think about how they'll continually be validated by their peers growing up, and how much impact this will have on their overall levels of motivation, self-esteem and confidence.

And here's another thing: a 'great personality' isn't some kind of switch that can be turned on and off at will. In the great majority of cases, it will simply be the result of your genetic profile, education and life experiences. It really isn't all that different from being blessed with a great appearance in terms of 'luck'. So telling an average-looking guy to 'adopt' a great personality to compensate for his appearance is rather illusory to me. Sure, you can 'work' on your personality, just like you can 'work' on your appearance, but this is going to be a lot of hard work and not just some kind of insignificant decision that you randomly make on a fine sunny day. And in the case of seduction, women will be a lot more attracted to men who can behave effortlessly than to men who must insistently/persistently show how great their personality is. Handsome men will be quite a lot more advantaged in this regard: attractive women will perceive them as rightful candidates right from the start, whereas in a lot of cases, average-looking men trying to 'adopt' a great personality will just be perceived as hopeful prospects that must gather every little effort they can muster just to have a slight chance of being perceived as their equal.

And to add to this point, I find it rather funny when appearance is considered to be something very superficial, whereas personality is considered to be a deep and wholehearted trait. As I said, some people are 'blessed' with a great personality just like some others are 'blessed' with a great appearance. The person in question won't have any more merit than other people in either case: personality isn't some kind of conscious decision that you make and have absolute control over. And in the case of seduction where profound qualities won't be all that perceptible, both of these traits are going to have a very similar impact: entertainment value. The man that's interesting and fun is still going to be attractive in a very superficial way, just like the handsome man will be with his harmonious appearance and the dreamlike feelings he'll provoke: reading a fascinating book isn't any less superficial than admiring beautiful paintings in a museum.

Quote by ManofAdventure
The OP is complaining that he is having very little to no success with attractive women because he's average looking-my point is that if he really wants to he can put in the effort to be the kind of guy that is good with women. Yes, it's not a magical pill that you can take, it requires work etc but it can be done and it's possible to re-programme yourself.It won;t work with every woman. You might find that there are occasions when you lapse back into your old ways but if you've spent the majority of your life acting that way, that's not surprising. But if you work at it, you can become the best version of yourself and eventually, it will become your default setting. With some people the ceiling might be higher than with others because some people are more intelligent, more gifted etc. But the main point is the same, rather than complain about it, do something about it. Try something different. Read some books. There are plenty of avenues open thanks to the internet. I'm not telling a guy to adopt a perrsonality-I'm telling him to cultivate one. To pick out qualities he possesses and expand on them. If he doesn't possess them but wants to, then start doing things i.e if he's not adventurous but wants to become more of a risk taker, do a bungy jump or start with something small and work his way up to a bungy jump. Get a hobby and put yourself out there. Meet people. Learn to like speaking with new people and to become ok, then decent, then good at it.

I don't believe in just accepting that "that is your lot" and there's nothing you can do about it. If you're 5'6, you're not going to grow 5 inches. But rather than just accept it, or worse adopt the attitude of "why should I bother", try to make sure that the rest of your appearance is good-clean shaven, clean clothes, polished shoes ; admittedly not all those things will appeal to all women and having a good appearance won't get you laid on its own but if you couple it with developing a great personality then it can and often will pay off. Too often people just take the easy way out and blame everything else rather than doing their best to make their dreams a reality. Why? Because it's far easier to complain and whine than to do something about it.

As for assuming that the average guy will have a great personality and the good looking guy will be a retarded jerk-I refer you to the above bit where the OP states that he's an average looking guy and I point you to my argument, that that's not a reason why he can't get laid with attractive women. It is an excuse. He can't change his looks but he can change his attitude and personality if he really wants to. So yes, I'm approaching it from the perspective that an average guy can have a great personality but not that they WILL have one.

Quote by SereneProdigy


We finally seem to slightly agree, haha. Not that I was entirely disagreeing with your previous posts, I simply felt the need to take things to a more realistic level. And I wasn't always replying to you either: sometimes I address things of general nature even if initially quoted a specific person in my response.

The thing is, working on yourself and improving your chances of dating women is a lot of hard work: there's no easy tip for that. And I'd actually say that working on your personality will require just as much effort as working on your appearance, and you'll also have similar limitations in the end. There's hope and a place for improvement with both of these traits, but you also have to be realistic in your expectations: you can't exactly expect your partners to exhibit qualities that you don't possess yourself to at least a slight degree, and personality can only compensate for your physical flaws in a somewhat limited extent. You have to offer as much as you receive, otherwise you'll have a pretty hard time convincing women to offer you any attention. If you have to 'convince' a woman to date you, you're doing it wrong already: you need to have some attractive traits yourself, there's no way around it.

And up to a point, depending on the amount of efforts you're willing to invest, you'll have to accept your personal limitations... which also implies accepting (and loving) partners that will have similar limitations.

Quote by ManofAdventure


I agree and I don't mind a passionate debate either ;) But if someone isn't prepared to put in the hardwork on themselves (sounds a little kinky) then:
a) they can't really complain about their lack of success-successful people don't just happen, they make it happen. Some of those people have more of a head start but if you're not one of them, work harder. It's "your" life after all so you better show an interest
b) they can't expect others to be impressed

One point you addresses which I didn't pick up on is that picking up women on bars/clubs is hard. As you say, you are competing against a ton of others but in addition to that women go to bars and clubs for different reasons to guys. Most guys go to get laid.
Women go because:
A) they're looking to get laid-this will account for a small percentage. if this is the case, she then has to decide whether you're worth talking to I.e you got to appeal more than the other guys. She'll probably have formed an opinion before your 5 seconds in or before you've arrived, if she's seen you approach.
B) they like the attention-but aren't looking
C) they're out with their friends and want to dance-and aren't looking

Most women will have decided whether they want to get laid before they even go out and as you can see, the odds are often against you from the start. Plus 90% of the time, the only reason why guys talk to women in clubs is to veg laid-so they're already on red alert.So that's why I initially said, stop focusing on the end result.

Personally I think the OP might find it easier talking to women in book shops, coffee shops and just everyday places-women are far more likely to be open to talk outside of clubs.

Quote by ManofAdventure
Op....you might also want to look into improving your own body language.

Quote by American Beauty
In order to be successful, one must project an image of success at all times. - Buddy Kane