Christian groups now more accepting of homosexuals

24 Dec 2015

Quote by sprite
a few thoughts. Christians, in this country, have had rights for roughly 250 years. gays have had equivalent rights for, roughly, 6 months. can't really remember the last time i read about an actual hate crime vs someone because they were christian, while i recall, vividly, the hate crimes committed against lgbtq folk. forgive me if don't show a lot of sympathy - btw, i was raised christian - i left when i realized i wasn't welcome.

I completely agree. Christians have made it very clear we went welcome in the lords house. I also agree that while this country was settled by those seeking religious freedom, they really meant THEIR RELIGION only. So, Christians have had it their way for 250 years, and I think they're a bit entitled.

Again, no one is trying to change anyone's beliefs! ( that argument is really weak, btw...

I have three famous stories, 2 recommended reads and have come in the top ten in two competitions~ Come in and make yourself at home.

24 Dec 2015

Quote by Annamagique
My, my... some interesting points of view but my own point seems to have been lost in all of this.
The point being that it NOT alright to discriminate against ANYONE.
Therefore, and I use gay as a reference but mean it to apply to any ideology, It is NOT alright to prevent people's CHRISTIAN beliefs any more than other people's Gay beliefs, or Muslim beliefs, or Jewish beliefs, etc.

First of all, being gay is not a believe. Catholicism may be a rather gay believe, but that's probably not what you meant ;)

What you state is a bit too easy in my mind. Of course, in a perfect world nobody's rights would be stepped on, but we live in a less than perfect world and sometimes the rights of one are just incompatible with the rights of the other. And so sometimes we need to decide which one outranks the other.

Quote by Annamagique
It Is far from alright to trample over anyone's wishes just to get your own when all things are generally accepted.
Should we say then that if Christians truly believe that being gay is wrong then we should ban Christianity? Even if they accept that Gay people are able to practice freely? Should they not be allowed their beliefs also in their own places.

They can have their believes for sure, but if they choose to open their place for the public they should accept all public. They may still believe whatever it is they believe.

Quote by Annamagique
Should we also frown upon Music of Black origin (MOBO) or Jamaican Origin (MOJO) because it doesn't include whites music? After all there are no MOWO awards.

I'm sure there are Country Music awards, Schlager awards, Opera awards, etc. The fact that there's maybe no reference to the ethnic background in the title might be a sign that they're associated with the most privileged groups in society.

Quote by Annamagique
All I am trying to say is that where there are ten hotels with available rooms but one of those is Christian, why go there? Why not just use one of the other nine hotels and leave the small one to itself?

If you just wants to have a nice time, then sure, go to the one that's happy to have you. But if one wants to protest discrimination, then it may be necessary to make a stance by confronting those doing the discrimination and have a modern day sit-in in their establishment.

Happy holidays from the Netherlands! ;)

=== Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER ===

24 Dec 2015

Quote by BiMale73

If you just wants to have a nice time, then sure, go to the one that's happy to have you. But if one wants to protest discrimination, then it may be necessary to make a stance by confronting those doing the discrimination and have a modern day sit-in in their establishment.

Happy holidays from the Netherlands! ;)

That's exactly what I'm on about as well! Nobody is trying to change the Christians way of life or beliefs. It is quite apparent, however that Christians are trying to keep gay rights at bay. Please explain to me how allowing a gay couple stay in a hotel, or catering a gay wedding is going to send someone to hell? And please don't tell me that it makes them a 'party to the sin' because that would mean that gun shops are murderers in the eyes of God...

I have three famous stories, 2 recommended reads and have come in the top ten in two competitions~ Come in and make yourself at home.

24 Dec 2015

Something else i'd like to point out - being sued over religious beliefs is not equivalent to being bullied, beaten, or killed because of your sexuality. i don't think all christian's behave like that, btw, but enough do that it effects us. i work as a volunteer with lgbtq kids, as well as having grown up with gay friends and being queer myself. i have stories. *shrugs* the truth is, if there's a war on christianity, perhaps the issue is that, for once, we are pushing back.

You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.

24 Dec 2015

Quote by sprite
Something else i'd like to point out - being sued over religious beliefs is not equivalent to being bullied, beaten, or killed because of your sexuality. i don't think all christian's behave like that, btw, but enough do that it effects us. i work as a volunteer with lgbtq kids, as well as having grown up with gay friends and being queer myself. i have stories. *shrugs* the truth is, if there's a war on christianity, perhaps the issue is that, for once, we are pushing back.

This is a true statement. I find it incredulous that there are still people who feel the way Anna does. By this way of thinking, one is condoning denying services of any kind to the LGBTQ community. Even home owenership, cars, jobs, insurance, medical care....all because they feel put upon that they have to include this community in their clientel. It's not okay.
Oh, well, all I can say is that good will prevail. It wasn't even legal in until 1967 for blacks and whites to marry in Texas, and who knows how many other states.

I have three famous stories, 2 recommended reads and have come in the top ten in two competitions~ Come in and make yourself at home.

24 Dec 2015

Quote by sprite
lgbtq folk.

There are SEVERAL reasons I'd crawl over broken glass for you, DISNEY, but ONE OF THEM is because you include the Q in LGBTQ...

(See, I'm a DEFINITE queer!!!)

Doesn't MATTER who YOU FUCK and it NEVER DOES!!!

xx SF

(It NOT about who YOU FUCK!!! It's about HOW YOU THINK...)

24 Dec 2015

Quote by stephanie

There are SEVERAL reasons I'd crawl over broken glass for you, DISNEY, but ONE OF THEM is because you include the Q in LGBTQ...

(See, I'm a DEFINITE queer!!!)

Doesn't MATTER who YOU FUCK and it NEVER DOES!!!

xx SF

(It NOT about who YOU FUCK!!! It's about HOW YOU THINK...)

This would be a great place for a 'Like' button! heart

I have three famous stories, 2 recommended reads and have come in the top ten in two competitions~ Come in and make yourself at home.

24 Dec 2015

Quote by Annamagique

All I am trying to say is that where there are ten hotels with available rooms but one of those is Christian, why go there? Why not just use one of the other nine hotels and leave the small one to itself?

just to sort of put a different spin on it, how would you feel if a hotel had a sign up saying: no blacks? in my eyes, it's the same thing. do you think blacks should just accept that they are not welcome at that hotel and go stay at one that's not as nice, or not as conveniently located, or what have you? what about if the sign said: no Christians, and it was the only one in town with a vacancy. how would that make you feel?

these are the questions that need to be considered. what about if it wasn't a hotel, but a hospital?

You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.

24 Dec 2015

I was just talking to a family member about this. He considers himself a Libertarian, which is another political, but lesser known of party in the US. They believe that the people should be allowed to make any decisions about their business's that they want too. My view on this is; what about my rights to enjoy the same services as anyone else? Fuck putting a 'we refuse service to anyone BS.."

These business's apply for a license to conduct business. The government can not descriminate, so IMO, they may need to add an addendum to the application process that before being issued the license, they agree to serve everyone, equally. As Princessa stated earlier, homosexuality is a protected status just like race, creed, gender,religion and disability. (sorry if I forgot one or two)

Is it not still denying the rights of a segment of the population? This is a very flawed arguement....We are talking about business's here, not places of worship.

Did you know that women weren't even allowed to play Golf (Gentleman Only, Ladies Forbidden) until the 1860's. Are we going to undo all the good we've done to create a more equal society?

I have three famous stories, 2 recommended reads and have come in the top ten in two competitions~ Come in and make yourself at home.

24 Dec 2015

Quote by BiMale73

You too. Always interesting duscussions about where the line should be when the rights of one group trump the rights of others.

OH!!! (And You Were Doing So Well!!!)

I'm not suggesting FOR A MOMENT that the 'rights' of any group should 'trump' (insert joke here...) the rights of others...

BE QUICKER AND FASTER WITH WHERE WE'RE GOING!!!

Bigots, Racists, Facists, Homophobes, Nazis etc. DO INDEED HAVE RIGHTS under current LAW... (NOBODY IS TRYING TO 'trump' THOSE RIGHTS!!!)

THINK what YOU LIKE!

(But TRY TO MAKE THAT POLICY AND YOU'RE UP AGAINST A FUCKING MAELSTORM.)

I'M NOT FORCING YOU TO THINK LIKE ME!!!

(Don't FUCKING DARE to FORCE ME to THINK like YOU.)

xx SF

24 Dec 2015

Quote by Annamagique

In the case of the hotel, the gay couple deliberately chose that particular hotel being fully aware of its status and there being others available. I notice there is no comment on an able bodied person being denied toilet facilities when there are disabled facilities only available...

Where were that gay couple supposed to go? What if every hotel in the city felt that way? Are you advocating predjudice by reason of religion to deny accomdations for the night...? Hmmm...
Back in ancient times, if a poor begger needed lodging it was a considered a sin to turn him away and not offer hospitality. And that's what we're talking about here. Hospitality. Period. No one will go to hell for selling a pizza, catering a wedding, etc.

I have three famous stories, 2 recommended reads and have come in the top ten in two competitions~ Come in and make yourself at home.

24 Dec 2015

Quote by Simmerdownchick

No one will go to hell for catering a wedding, etc.

you, obviously, weren't at my wedding... Embarassed

You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.

25 Dec 2015

Quote by sprite

you, obviously, weren't at my wedding...

LOL! unequivocally speaking, I refer only to the caterer...otherwise, I'm sorry I missed it, lol!

I have three famous stories, 2 recommended reads and have come in the top ten in two competitions~ Come in and make yourself at home.

25 Dec 2015

Quote by stephanie

OH!!! (And You Were Doing So Well!!!)

I'm not suggesting FOR A MOMENT that the 'rights' of any group should 'trump' (insert joke here...) the rights of others...

BE QUICKER AND FASTER WITH WHERE WE'RE GOING!!!

Bigots, Racists, Facists, Homophobes, Nazis etc. DO INDEED HAVE RIGHTS under current LAW... (NOBODY IS TRYING TO 'trump' THOSE RIGHTS!!!)

THINK what YOU LIKE!

(But TRY TO MAKE THAT POLICY AND YOU'RE UP AGAINST A FUCKING MAELSTORM.)

I'M NOT FORCING YOU TO THINK LIKE ME!!!

(Don't FUCKING DARE to FORCE ME to THINK like YOU.)

xx SF

WUT? You lost me there. Maybe 'trump' was not the right word, as English is not my native language.
What I meant is that there are moments where one may not be completely free to exercise their rights to the fullest extend because it is incompatible with the rights of someone else. So it follows that there must be some limits. Hopefully those limits resemble a balance but it may very well feel like a ranking, where people feel that the rights of others outrank their own (the "war on Christianity" nonsense e.a.).

=== Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER ===

25 Dec 2015

Quote by Simmerdownchick

Anna, I promise, I did not miss your point. And insinuating that my POV is because I'm American surprises me. I really thought that Europians, especially the British were more accepting than we are. I think it's very important to point out that no one, gay OR straight, is trying to 'change others beliefs'. We are challenging the motives of their discrimination. It's just like Steph said, this would not be an issue if Muslims came in looking for lodging. Mary Magdeline was a whore, for christs sake. I really don't believe your discriminating, I know how accepting you are; but your post makes it sound like you arent open to hearing the other side of this arguement. You've made up your mind and it's evident every time you say 'You are missing my point" to everyone that disagrees.

I know PLENTY of Christian people that do not feel the way you do about this. This is a HUMAN RIGHTS issue, not a Religious issue, because NO ONE is trying to keep anyone from practicing their religion. Last I heard, there are no scriptures in the Bible saying 'if you serve the heretic' youre damned. But it does say that ALL sins are equal. Leviticus also said not to wear fibers of mixed fabrics, Leviticus 15:19 states; 19When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening. 20'Everything also on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean, and everything on which she sits shall be unclean.…

This should not even be a debate. Again, i'm shocked to hear that we Americans, (according to you, if I read it right) are more open minded than the British. Wow...

I am sorry, Simmer, but I was indeed saying that the U.S. in general, not you or individuals, is LESS tolerant than the Europeans. We will trample over anyone to ensure that minorities get whatever they wish or so it seems. A criminal can claim compensation if he gets hurt breaking into someone's house in the UK!
I am afraid that you have missed the point. I am not condemning peoples rights to live as they wish but not at the expense of others beliefs! The only thing I am saying is tolerance for ALL beliefs. Those hotel owners, actually a small Christian guest house to be precise, did not condemn the gay men. They just didn't want them to sleep together IN THEIR HOUSE. Is that too much to ask when there were many other hotels of equal, lesser and greater quality that they could have used.
Which is more acceptable. To say, 'I am gay and you better get used to it' or 'I am Christian and you better get used to it'?
And are you saying I am intolerant? I find that unbelievably offensive, Simmer and Human Rights includes the right to practice religion as much as any other practice they believe to be acceptable. Did the Jews in Germany not have BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS to live their lives in accordance to their RELIGION?
I would also like to point out that the hotel did not turn them away. They just would not allow two men or two women to rent a room with a double bed whether they were gay or not and they were fully aware of that fact when they booked!

25 Dec 2015

Quote by BiMale73
First of all, being gay is not a believe. Catholicism may be a rather gay believe, but that's probably not what you meant ;)

How dare you make disparaging remarks about MY religion. I may not follow its ridiculous administration but I do follow its basic teachings.

Quote by BiMale73
If you just wants to have a nice time, then sure, go to the one that's happy to have you. But if one wants to protest discrimination, then it may be necessary to make a stance by confronting those doing the discrimination and have a modern day sit-in in their establishment.

That would be a wholly unnecessary protest and only serves to cause trouble and to say that your beliefs are more important than theirs in exactly the same way that the Nazis marched into synagogues and imposed their beliefs on the Jews!

25 Dec 2015

I don't understand why I am suddenly being attacked as intolerant to gay people when all I am TRYING to say is that there is no reason why ALL lifestyle and religious choices should be tolerated by each of us.

I eat meat but respect a vegans choice not to eat it.
I like women sexually but respect those women who do not.
I don't smoke but respect the rights of those who do, except where it affects me directly.
AND, BiMale73, I AM CATHOLIC but I respect the rights of gay people but not to cause unnecessary hardship those who are not comfortable with it!

I also object to the MUSLIM GIRL who sued a small hairdressing shop who refused her a job where the successful applicant would be required to wear her hair in different styles to help promote the standard of work of the shop, when she insisted on wearing a niqab! Is it acceptable that she should put at risk the livelihood of all the staff just because WANTED to keep her head covered.

Is it so difficult to follow?

26 Dec 2015

Quote by Annamagique

I am sorry, Simmer, but I was indeed saying that the U.S. in general, not you or individuals, is LESS tolerant than the Europeans. We will trample over anyone to ensure that minorities get whatever they wish or so it seems. A criminal can claim compensation if he gets hurt breaking into someone's house in the UK!
I am afraid that you have missed the point. I am not condemning peoples rights to live as they wish but not at the expense of others beliefs! The only thing I am saying is tolerance for ALL beliefs. Those hotel owners, actually a small Christian guest house to be precise, did not condemn the gay men. They just didn't want them to sleep together IN THEIR HOUSE. Is that too much to ask when there were many other hotels of equal, lesser and greater quality that they could have used.
Which is more acceptable. To say, 'I am gay and you better get used to it' or 'I am Christian and you better get used to it'?
And are you saying I am intolerant? I find that unbelievably offensive, Simmer and Human Rights includes the right to practice religion as much as any other practice they believe to be acceptable. Did the Jews in Germany not have BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS to live their lives in accordance to their RELIGION?
I would also like to point out that the hotel did not turn them away. They just would not allow two men or two women to rent a room with a double bed whether they were gay or not and they were fully aware of that fact when they booked!

I understand that you feel very passionate about this. And I know you are not intolerant of gay people. It's very evident. Anne, I am not missing your point, and I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I am just as passionate as you are, but I stand on the other side of this issue. Let's forget about Nazi Germany for a minute because it would seem we've learned nothing from that, and honestly, since gays have been treated as a pariah on societly for so long, that hearing others say that 'we' are acting like the Nazi's is sickening. Just another way to kick us where it hurts and not true.

What you call religious freedom, I call discrimination. I know you don't see it that way. So, there are two very stubborn sides to this issue.

I can't imagine how much damage it would do to me, personally, if my therapist told me that he would not see me anymore because I finally came out to him. Or if my cardiologist suddenly refused to treat me. I'd be crushed and probably have a nervous breakdown over the stress of it.

To me, the very meat of this stinks of hypocracy.

There HAS to be a middle ground. Business owners, doctors, caterers etc, should not be able to pick and choose their customers on the basis of sexual orientation, unless maybe they are organized into a co op of some kind.

This is not a lifestyle 'choice'. It is engrained into who I am. Religion is a lifestyle choice, a belief system, there in lies the difference.

If a Christian chooses not to serve gay people, where does it end? Should we forget all the progress that we've made in human rights? Now, before you say that Christian rights are human rights, remember; there must be a line drawn in the sand. Why would religious business owner not also be required to deny service to a divorced person that has remarried.

All sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord. I feel that singling out gays is very intolerant. And, frankly, a bit de-humanizing. Who's to say the next step would not be "let's round up all gay people and put them in slums, etc...? I know, it's a very extreme example, but just how far down can our community be kept in the name of religious rights? I don't know any gay people that want to change the beliefs of church goers, many gay people are Christians.

"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it," (Matthew 19:12)."

There was no word for homosexual back then, and depending on your interpretation (much of the bible can be interpreted differently to different people). It seems like some Christians are so fearful of homosexuals they don't see that it's truly discriminatory. We would never ever tell a black person that can't stay because they're black. They are a race and born black. I would argue that I was also born this way. It is not a choice (who in their right mind choose it?)

I believe with all my soul that human sexuality varies in individuals to an extent. It doesn't mean it's a choice, or a compulsion (such as predatory sex offenders).

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
-Leviticus 20:13

Does this mean that religios freedom will include the rest of the sentence? Honestly, I understand people want rights. But where dies it end? Discrimination must not be allowed.

I'm really not trying to put words in your mouth, I just want to understand. You appear to see this is an attack on religion, but you also see that both sides must give in some? Or just gay people have to give in? Maybe I am missing your point in that respect. But the way I see it, the rights of gay people are not on an equal footing as it is, and now we're being pushed down even more; yet we are the ones discriminating?

I certainly do not condone making a small B and B host a gay pride event, because they probably would not host a high school reunion (for example).

As far as the couple you spoke of; that gay couple does not represent the entire community and, if it was made public information that they would not honor reservations made by homosexuals intending to stay there as you say, then I will agree, because this was their house, they should be able to turn anyone away the want. However, if the law states that they can not discriminate, then in cases such as this...it is where they live and their house. At that point they should be able to deny anyone they like, service.

Religious freedom IS important. I agree. People must be allowed to worship as they like. It just seems nasty mean that all of the attention to the right not to serve 'sinners' is reserved soley for the gay community; and you must know there has been significant hate crimes perpetrated against (our) community. If religious people want be allowed to deny service to those that go against their doctrine, it must include All OF THEM. Not just the gay community. But that must include all sin. Otherwise, It's just singling out an entire community of people who, whether they like it or not, we're born gay. Just like being right or left handed.
But, the problem with that is, homosexuality is much more likely to be easily noticed, and I really doubt it'd ever be legal anywhere to inquire if someone has been divorced, having an affair, etc...
I don't have the answer. It's certainly not black and white.

I really do respect your opinion on this even if I don't agree. It needs to be discussed, rather than argued in any case.

I have three famous stories, 2 recommended reads and have come in the top ten in two competitions~ Come in and make yourself at home.

26 Dec 2015

Quote by Annamagique
How dare you make disparaging remarks about MY religion. I may not follow its ridiculous administration but I do follow its basic teachings.

Calm down.
1. it was just a joke (hence the smiley), refering to the all dressed up all male administration that you just called ridiculous yourself
2. you don't own the religion and other Catholics may be fine by jokes about it
3. every world view, incl. religion, is up for criticism/ridicule
4. number 3 is actually an important part of my world view, or 'believe' if you will, and so according to your logic I should have the freedom to live by it
That's how I dare.

And I'm not sure how I should've known that you're a Catholic. Not that it matters, but you seem to suggest that I should have known. I didn't.

Quote by Annamagique
That would be a wholly unnecessary protest and only serves to cause trouble and to say that your beliefs are more important than theirs in exactly the same way that the Nazis marched into synagogues and imposed their beliefs on the Jews!

Rosa Parks could have sat down in the back of the bus, but no, she had to make it clear that her rights where more important than those of the white folks by being a drama queen about it. Right?

Please read up on the ideology/rise/violence of the Nazis and Kristallnacht before you make such outrageous comparisons again.

=== Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER ===

26 Dec 2015

Quote by BiMale73

Rosa Parks could have sat down in the back of the bus, but no, she had to make it clear that her rights where more important than those of the white folks by being a drama queen about it. Right?

I was going to use her as an example as well

I have three famous stories, 2 recommended reads and have come in the top ten in two competitions~ Come in and make yourself at home.

26 Dec 2015

Quote by Simmerdownchick
I was going to use her as an example as well

Bam! Too late!

I'm sorry... I mean "great minds think alike" of course ;)

=== Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER ===

26 Dec 2015

Quote by BiMale73

Bam! Too late!

I'm sorry... I mean "great minds think alike" of course ;)

OH SNAP, lol!!

I have three famous stories, 2 recommended reads and have come in the top ten in two competitions~ Come in and make yourself at home.

26 Dec 2015

Quote by Simmerdownchick

I understand that you feel very passionate about this. And I know you are not intolerant of gay people. It's very evident. Anne, I am not missing your point, and I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I am just as passionate as you are, but I stand on the other side of this issue. Let's forget about Nazi Germany for a minute because it would seem we've learned nothing from that, and honestly, since gays have been treated as a pariah on societly for so long, that hearing others say that 'we' are acting like the Nazi's is sickening. Just another way to kick us where it hurts and not true.

What you call religious freedom, I call discrimination. I know you don't see it that way. So, there are two very stubborn sides to this issue.

I can't imagine how much damage it would do to me, personally, if my therapist told me that he would not see me anymore because I finally came out to him. Or if my cardiologist suddenly refused to treat me. I'd be crushed and probably have a nervous breakdown over the stress of it.

To me, the very meat of this stinks of hypocracy.

There HAS to be a middle ground. Business owners, doctors, caterers etc, should not be able to pick and choose their customers on the basis of sexual orientation, unless maybe they are organized into a co op of some kind.

This is not a lifestyle 'choice'. It is engrained into who I am. Religion is a lifestyle choice, a belief system, there in lies the difference.

If a Christian chooses not to serve gay people, where does it end? Should we forget all the progress that we've made in human rights? Now, before you say that Christian rights are human rights, remember; there must be a line drawn in the sand. Why would religious business owner not also be required to deny service to a divorced person that has remarried.

All sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord. I feel that singling out gays is very intolerant. And, frankly, a bit de-humanizing. Who's to say the next step would not be "let's round up all gay people and put them in slums, etc...? I know, it's a very extreme example, but just how far down can our community be kept in the name of religious rights? I don't know any gay people that want to change the beliefs of church goers, many gay people are Christians.

"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it," (Matthew 19:12)."

There was no word for homosexual back then, and depending on your interpretation (much of the bible can be interpreted differently to different people). It seems like some Christians are so fearful of homosexuals they don't see that it's truly discriminatory. We would never ever tell a black person that can't stay because they're black. They are a race and born black. I would argue that I was also born this way. It is not a choice (who in their right mind choose it?)

I believe with all my soul that human sexuality varies in individuals to an extent. It doesn't mean it's a choice, or a compulsion (such as predatory sex offenders).

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
-Leviticus 20:13

Does this mean that religios freedom will include the rest of the sentence? Honestly, I understand people want rights. But where dies it end? Discrimination must not be allowed.

I'm really not trying to put words in your mouth, I just want to understand. You appear to see this is an attack on religion, but you also see that both sides must give in some? Or just gay people have to give in? Maybe I am missing your point in that respect. But the way I see it, the rights of gay people are not on an equal footing as it is, and now we're being pushed down even more; yet we are the ones discriminating?

I certainly do not condone making a small B and B host a gay pride event, because they probably would not host a high school reunion (for example).

As far as the couple you spoke of; that gay couple does not represent the entire community and, if it was made public information that they would not honor reservations made by homosexuals intending to stay there as you say, then I will agree, because this was their house, they should be able to turn anyone away the want. However, if the law states that they can not discriminate, then in cases such as this...it is where they live and their house. At that point they should be able to deny anyone they like, service.

Religious freedom IS important. I agree. People must be allowed to worship as they like. It just seems nasty mean that all of the attention to the right not to serve 'sinners' is reserved soley for the gay community; and you must know there has been significant hate crimes perpetrated against (our) community. If religious people want be allowed to deny service to those that go against their doctrine, it must include All OF THEM. Not just the gay community. But that must include all sin. Otherwise, It's just singling out an entire community of people who, whether they like it or not, we're born gay. Just like being right or left handed.
But, the problem with that is, homosexuality is much more likely to be easily noticed, and I really doubt it'd ever be legal anywhere to inquire if someone has been divorced, having an affair, etc...
I don't have the answer. It's certainly not black and white.

I really do respect your opinion on this even if I don't agree. It needs to be discussed, rather than argued in any case.

First, an apology. I missed a small part of the 'Hotel' thing. They also stated that double rooms, ie, shared bed, were not available to unmarried coup[les. Now I agree that this could cause problems as some married couple may keep their original names and it also would not be possible t tell whether a married couple had been divorced although, that is not objectionable to some Christian faiths.
There can be no 'middle ground' as you put it, when one side demands unconditional acceptance from the other. The idea is that both sides give enough so that they can each live there lives peacefully.

You examples about medical treatment is ridiculous. Sharing a hotel bed is not going risk anyone's life! You are making far too much of this and showing that you appear to be intolerant of anyone who does not agree with your life style.

Would you stand beside a non smoker (I don't know whether you smoke or not but this is hypothetical) and allow your smoke to drift over him/her just because you think you should be allowed to?
or would you consider their rights and stand a discrete distance away or wait until you can smoke without disturbing them?
You seem determined to pillory me over the gay thing when I refer to ALL rights to a peaceful life.
PS. My name is ANNA!

26 Dec 2015

Quote by Annamagique

First, an apology. I missed a small part of the 'Hotel' thing. They also stated that double rooms, ie, shared bed, were not available to unmarried coup[les. Now I agree that this could cause problems as some married couple may keep their original names and it also would not be possible t tell whether a married couple had been divorced although, that is not objectionable to some Christian faiths.
There can be no 'middle ground' as you put it, when one side demands unconditional acceptance from the other. The idea is that both sides give enough so that they can each live there lives peacefully.

The only comment I can make to that, is that some churches also embrace gay people.

Quote by Annamagique

You examples about medical treatment is ridiculous. Sharing a hotel bed is not going risk anyone's life! You are making far too much of this and showing that you appear to be intolerant of anyone who does not agree with your life style.

Your reaction confuses me. My point was sincere, I was not mocking you. And I didn't say 'sharing a hotel bed in not going to risk anyone's life." I said providing a room to a gay couple is not putting anyone's soul at risk. They're not in the room having sex with them.
I'm speechless that you have reacted with such seemingly hostile response. I honestly do fear that this is where these religious freedom laws will go. If people are legally allowed to deny services, then why would it be out of line to thnk Doctors to deny treatment. It's already happened here in the States, although lawsuits followed. I supposed those that were denied treatment were wrong as well?
Did you read my entire post, or were you so angry with me that you missed something?

Quote by Annamagique

Would you stand beside a non smoker (I don't know whether you smoke or not but this is hypothetical) and allow your smoke to drift over him/her just because you think you should be allowed to?
or would you consider their rights and stand a discrete distance away or wait until you can smoke without disturbing them?
You seem determined to pillory me over the gay thing when I refer to ALL rights to a peaceful life.
PS. My name is ANNA!

Sorry ANNA...I'm not following you on the smoking reference. What does that have to do with anything? I'm not, nor have I ever disrespected or attacked you, so please, a little respect in return would be nice. Neither of us are gonna change the world here, and we're both entitled to our own opinions. Please do not assume I'm trying to "pillory" you over this. I was of the opinion we we're having a conversation.

Quote by Annamagique

You examples about medical treatment is ridiculous. Sharing a hotel bed is not going risk anyone's life!

That said, I really am curious what this means...and please, re read my last post without prejudice of what you think I meant. I wasn't throwing stones at you

I have three famous stories, 2 recommended reads and have come in the top ten in two competitions~ Come in and make yourself at home.

26 Dec 2015

Quote by Annamagique

You are making far too much of this and showing that you appear to be intolerant of anyone who does not agree with your life style.

One thing i have to point out. being gay is not a lifestyle, it's not a choice. you either are, are you are not. no one just wakes up one day and thinks 'ya know? think i'm gonna be gay. ya know, i'm going to start sleeping with men.' it's who we are and it's not something you can change. that's fact, not opinion.

also, i need to point out that people like simmerdown and myself are outspoken on this subject because we have to be. personally, i'm all about live and let live, but when i find my basic rights being denied, when i find myself being discriminated against, when i see others like me bullied and abused and beaten and murdered, i find that i have two choices. accept it or fight it. i choose to fight it, and it's frustrating, because those entrenched in their beliefs that being gay is a sin - and think about that; as i said, it's not a life style, it's who we are. it's like saying being a woman is a sin - often don't have open minds, and simply reject us based on who we love.

think about it - rejected based on who we love. can you even imagine what that feels like? all too often the church sees gays as running around sleeping with anything that moves - promiscuous fornicators. sure, some do. so do some straight people. i hear that straight people have affairs, or sleep out of wedlock too. a lot of us simply want to be left alone, to fall in love, to marry that one person, to live out our lives with them, and for people not do condemn us for it. is that really so much to ask? why should a hotel care if my wife and i rent a room? we're married. do they care if two single people rent a room and have sex in it? do they care if some guy rents a room and invites a girl to spend the night? do they check to see if the couple renting the room are jewish? nope. they single out gays, and that is the crux of the issue. they discriminate against a specific group.

You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.

26 Dec 2015

Quote by Buz
Annamagique, the pendulum of so called progress swings from right to left, from one most radical side to the other most radical side and then it swings back again. That is how history is made and will continue. If one is lucky they will live in the time that the pendulum is most moderate.

I only go to church occasionally these days. I was raised in church and I am a Christian. When I do go I attend a large Baptist Church that has gay & lesbian members as some deacons/deaconesses and staff members that are gay. There are many active members who are gay & lesbian (I assume some are bisexual). And yes, I live in the deep south, heart of the Bible belt.

I live in Atlanta and we're rated the 3rd best LGBT city in the USA.

1. San Francisco
2. Seattle
3. Atlanta

i converted 2 cities to super gayness, Buz - you've only done one - you're slacking ;)

You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.

26 Dec 2015

Quote by Annamagique
How dare you make disparaging remarks about MY religion.

just one more thing... i have to agree with this, but when you say stuff like this, think of all the comments that we, as gays, have had to endure, and not just comments. ever been spit on? cursed at? called names? harrassed? physically threatened for your beliefs? i'm guessing not. can you not see why we feel the need to fight for equality? and that is, really, in the end all that i ask - to be treated like anyone else. nothing more, but i will accept nothing less.

You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.

26 Dec 2015

Quote by sprite
just one more thing... i have to agree with this, but when you say stuff like this, think of all the comments that we, as gays, have had to endure, and not just comments. ever been spit on? cursed at? called names? harrassed? physically threatened for your beliefs? i'm guessing not. can you not see why we feel the need to fight for equality? and that is, really, in the end all that i ask - to be treated like anyone else. nothing more, but i will accept nothing less.

Setting religion apart as the one thing that cannot be scrutinized/criticized/ridiculed is supporting religious privilege, making it actually harder to fight religiously driven bigotry.
Let's treat religion like any other world view: praise it for its good parts, condemn it for its bad parts and ridicule it for its silly parts.

=== Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER ===

26 Dec 2015

Quote by Annamagique

First, an apology. I missed a small part of the 'Hotel' thing. They also stated that double rooms, ie, shared bed, were not available to unmarried coup[les. Now I agree that this could cause problems as some married couple may keep their original names and it also would not be possible t tell whether a married couple had been divorced although, that is not objectionable to some Christian faiths.
There can be no 'middle ground' as you put it, when one side demands unconditional acceptance from the other. The idea is that both sides give enough so that they can each live there lives peacefully.

You examples about medical treatment is ridiculous. Sharing a hotel bed is not going risk anyone's life! You are making far too much of this and showing that you appear to be intolerant of anyone who does not agree with your life style.

Would you stand beside a non smoker (I don't know whether you smoke or not but this is hypothetical) and allow your smoke to drift over him/her just because you think you should be allowed to?
or would you consider their rights and stand a discrete distance away or wait until you can smoke without disturbing them?
You seem determined to pillory me over the gay thing when I refer to ALL rights to a peaceful life.
PS. My name is ANNA!

Where do you get this notion of 'unconditional acceptance'? Gay people and the LGBTQ community in general just want to be the same as anyone else. Yes, there are those with an agenda, which can be said of any group, marginalized or otherwise, but basic human rights are what they want. Not just for everyone to like them.

It's often baffled me that if a member of the KKK were denied service by a Black-owned establishment, no one would bat an eye. But if a Christian denied a gay person services under the grounds of religious freedom, then it sparks outrage. But the KKK is a hate group. Their entire reason for existence is White supremacy. If left unchecked (as they once were), they'd be back to public lynchings and everything else. But according to their constitutional rights, the KKK is still allowed to hold their bigoted beliefs. They can march around. They can spread their message, but they are no longer legally allowed to impose their bigotry. Some Christian groups are rooted in hatred. If left to their own devices, I'm sure some could come up with some pretty fucked up things to do to people on the name of God...and some already have. But they're not legally allowed to do that anymore.

There are some Muslim men who don't think women should drive. Would it be right for a Muslim man to work for the DMV and refuse to issue women driver's licenses? The Bible states that women can't own land or property in terms of a home. Would it then be right for a realtor or homeowner to deny a woman the option of purchasing a home because it aligns with their religious beliefs? And once someone found out that a woman was denied the opportunity to own the property she desired, would she then be told to simply look elsewhere? Or to rent the next available apartment to avoid offending anyone any further in her quest to own a home? Do you see how ridiculous it sounds when you say 'Why not go elsewhere?'

I agree that we walk a fine line with where the rights of one group begins and the line for another ends. But religious freedom shouldn't be used as an excuse for discrimination. Religious freedom gives you the right to worship any god you choose, or no god at all. It also keeps someone from forcing you to worship their god or no god at all. It does not give you freedom to violate basic human rights of an individual because your religion says you can. You bring up constitutional rights, but that's the US Constitution at work. Each amendment keeps the other in check (in theory, anyway).

When one applies for the proper licenses and permits required to own a business, there are certain laws to abide by. So long as one benefits from the services rendered by the legal obligations of all individuals (i.e. benefits funded by everyone's tax dollars), you can't pick and choose which of those individuals benefit from your services.

Refusing someone services because of your religion is an imposition of your beliefs, which is a violation of the constitution. One would argue that a gay person is imposing their beliefs simply by wanting service from an establishment that doesn't want to serve gay people, but unless the gay person is telling the owner of said establishment that they, too must become gay, then there is no imposition involved. Simply existing as a gay person is not an imposition of the 'gay lifestyle'. I put it in quotes because that's not even a thing, as it implies that they live a different lifestyle than heterosexuals. They don't.

Everyone has the constitutional right to hold bigoted beliefs. They're just not allowed to impose those bigoted beliefs on others.

"What is the quality of your intent?" - Thurgood Marshall

26 Dec 2015

@ ANNAMAGIQUE

"How dare you make disparaging remarks about MY religion."

Because I don't GIVE A FUCK about YOUR religion? (Believe what you WANT to believe. But I can DISPARAGE the fuck out of that belief if I want...)

I ACTUALLY don't mean to cause offense, TRULY I DO NOT, but DON'T FUCKING TELL ME WHAT I CAN AND CANNOT SAY!!!

I'm NOT saying don't believe it IF YOU WANT!!! It's OBVIOUS that you are a GOOD PERSON and are taking the BEST moral tenets while troubled by the 'we hate everyone who doesn't agree with us and they WILL be damned' bit...

But you know what?

I THINK IT'S A FUCKING NONSENSE!

And I'll say that if I fucking want to.

xx SF

Last Rant: "GOD IS LOVE!" Well, WE ALL KNOW WHAT LOVE IS, YEAH? And I'm DOWN WITH THE GOD IS LOVE THING!!! But... ONE FAVOR? Don't DEFINE 'love' for ME or anyone else, yeah? Love who you WANT! Allow ME AND MINE the same right. LOVE is individual IN EVERY INSTANCE, each as VALID AND REAL as ANY OTHER LOVE!!! So, DO NOT TELL ME THAT My LOVE doesn't FIT WITH your idea of love... You know the only OTHER group of people who hold that view? FUCKING STALKERS!!! (And WE KNOW those poor fuckers are Mentally Ill!!!)