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Christian groups now more accepting of homosexuals

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Realizing my bisexuality later in life... it's been and continues to be somewhat of a struggle. Being raised in a fairly strict Catholic family I am sure has been part of my issue coming to terms with it (which I have personally but I am not "out" by any means outside of Lush and one other person who unfortunately is having a very hard time dealing with it).

That as backdrop... I was a little bit pleased to see this article showing that Christians in general are becoming more acceptable of homosexuality. While it does not cover bisexuals (which maybe they are not as welcoming yet), this is some good news I think just from an overall acceptance standpoint. I wish for the day that there is no shame or hesitation or anything negative when it comes to one's sexuality. Until then... little bits of good news only helps smile

I'd enjoy hearing your thoughts - both in general on the subject of acceptance and this study which is found here:
http://news.yahoo.com/poll-shows-christians-america-really-203719289.html
Unknown User
It does please me that Christian groups are becoming more accepting of homosexuals but I do have one concern. When will homosexuals become more accepting of Christian beliefs.
As an example, two homosexuals who sued a small Christian hotel and destroyed their business and took away their income. Could they not just have accepted their beliefs in the way that they wanted to be accepted for their own and use a different hotel?
This is not a dig at anyone as I believe that everyone has right to be whoever they are or wish to be but not at the expense of others.
Traditional London buses were taken out of service because they were not accessible to disabled people even though there were plenty of others (on the same route) that were.
It seems that all minority groups want to force their rights on everyone and in the end, everyone loses.
I know of a coffee shop where the only toilet is a disabled one and able bodied people are not allowed to use it.
I hope no-one is offended by this as that is not my intention but these things work both ways whether it be Race, Creed or ability.
Buz
The Linebacker
Annamagique, the pendulum of so called progress swings from right to left, from one most radical side to the other most radical side and then it swings back again. That is how history is made and will continue. If one is lucky they will live in the time that the pendulum is most moderate.

I only go to church occasionally these days. I was raised in church and I am a Christian. When I do go I attend a large Baptist Church that has gay & lesbian members as some deacons/deaconesses and staff members that are gay. There are many active members who are gay & lesbian (I assume some are bisexual). And yes, I live in the deep south, heart of the Bible belt.

I live in Atlanta and we're rated the 3rd best LGBT city in the USA.

1. San Francisco
2. Seattle
3. Atlanta
principessa
Sophisticate
Annamagique, I think that you will find that most jurisdictions that have human rights legislation include sexual orientation as one of the grounds upon which one may not discriminate. What that means is that you cannot discriminate against people in the provision of goods and services if you own a business. You are not permitted to choose your clients or customers based on any of these parameters. It is no different from rejecting African-Americans based on skin colour before the Civil Rights Act outlawed such discrimination.
ChuckEPoo
Chuckanator
Quote by Buz
Annamagique, the pendulum of so called progress swings from right to left, from one most radical side to the other most radical side and then it swings back again. That is how history is made and will continue. If one is lucky they will live in the time that the pendulum is most moderate.

I only go to church occasionally these days. I was raised in church and I am a Christian. When I do go I attend a large Baptist Church that has gay & lesbian members as some deacons/deaconesses and staff members that are gay. There are many active members who are gay & lesbian (I assume some are bisexual). And yes, I live in the deep south, heart of the Bible belt.

I live in Atlanta and we're rated the 3rd best LGBT city in the USA.

1. San Francisco
2. Seattle
3. Atlanta


This is my story except I'm in California and attend an independent Bible Church. We promote love, reconciliation, and acceptance. "God so loved the world..." Every soul.
Unknown User
Quote by principessa
Annamagique, I think that you will find that most jurisdictions that have human rights legislation include sexual orientation as one of the grounds upon which one may not discriminate. What that means is that you cannot discriminate against people in the provision of goods and services if you own a business. You are not permitted to choose your clients or customers based on any of these parameters. It is no different from rejecting African-Americans based on skin colour before the Civil Rights Act outlawed such discrimination.


I think you are missing the point here. Let me give you another example. I am not a Jew and do not follow Judaism but I would not walk into a Jewish butcher and demand a pork pie or a bacon sandwich and then sue him because he wouldn't sell me one. Would you?
I believe it is every persons right to be whatever they wish to be, to follow whatever doctrine they want to follow PROVIDED they do not expect others to do as they want them to.
There is a well known phrase:
"You cannot have your cake and eat it!"
I am happy that gay people have rights, I am happy that disabled people have access and I am happy that different races and religions are treated equally UNTIL... these people begin to insist that others have to do as they are told regardless of their own feelings.
"I cannot sleep in YOUR hotel so I will take it away from you!"
"I cannot get on YOUR bus so I will take it away from you!"
"I want to force my daughter to marry her cousin and I DEMAND that you allow it!"
I know of and fully support Human rights legislation up to the point that it becomes a tool to override someone else's human rights!

If you think I am bigoted because of this, read my bio and my stories and then come back to me.
principessa
Sophisticate
Quote by Annamagique


I think you are missing the point here. Let me give you another example. I am not a Jew and do not follow Judaism but I would not walk into a Jewish butcher and demand a pork pie or a bacon sandwich and then sue him because he wouldn't sell me one. Would you?
I believe it is every persons right to be whatever they wish to be, to follow whatever doctrine they want to follow PROVIDED they do not expect others to do as they want them to.
There is a well known phrase:
"You cannot have your cake and eat it!"
I am happy that gay people have rights, I am happy that disabled people have access and I am happy that different races and religions are treated equally UNTIL... these people begin to insist that others have to do as they are told regardless of their own feelings.
"I cannot sleep in YOUR hotel so I will take it away from you!"
"I cannot get on YOUR bus so I will take it away from you!"
"I want to force my daughter to marry her cousin and I DEMAND that you allow it!"
I know of and fully support Human rights legislation up to the point that it becomes a tool to override someone else's human rights!

If you think I am bigoted because of this, read my bio and my stories and then come back to me.


I was explaining the state of the law and why a claim could be made. I did not call you a bigot. Sometimes what is legal and what each of us think is right are two different things.
noll
"insensitive prick!" – Danielle Algo
Quote by Annamagique
I think you are missing the point here. Let me give you another example. I am not a Jew and do not follow Judaism but I would not walk into a Jewish butcher and demand a pork pie or a bacon sandwich and then sue him because he wouldn't sell me one. Would you?


Your example doesn't make much sense to me, unless the butcher does sell pork pie or bacon sandwich to others, but refuses to sell them to you. Customers can't demand what a butcher does or does not sell (well, they can try of course), but it makes perfect sense to demand that they treat all their customers the same.

If a gay couple cannot book a hotel because the owners don't agree with their life style then they have every right to sue them. But if they want a cake in the shape of a cock and the bakery says "sorry, but we don't do cakes like that because of our believe" then they need to find another bakery. But when the bakery does make cakes like that (you know, for some circumcision celebration or whatever), just not for gays, then the bakery is clearly in the wrong.

Of course there will be folks who may be too pushy and annoying, marginalized people are just people after all. But how annoying is it when you're actively disciminated and pushed against? If it's a straight couple's right to book the room that's still available because it was previously refused to a gay couple, then I don't have any problems when the rights of the gay couple start overriding this privileged right of that straight couple.


===  Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER  ===
noll
"insensitive prick!" – Danielle Algo
Quote by chatnstroke


No surprise that Catholics are, among Christians, the most tolerant towards homesexuals; their Episcopal Conferences look like Liberace Fan Club meetups


===  Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER  ===
Unknown User
Quote by BiMale73


Your example doesn't make much sense to me, unless the butcher does sell pork pie or bacon sandwich to others, but refuses to sell them to you. Customers can't demand what a butcher does or does not sell (well, they can try of course), but it makes perfect sense to demand that they treat all their customers the same.

If a gay couple cannot book a hotel because the owners don't agree with their life style then they have every right to sue them. But if they want a cake in the shape of a cock and the bakery says "sorry, but we don't do cakes like that because of our believe" then they need to find another bakery. But when the bakery does make cakes like that (you know, for some circumcision celebration or whatever), just not for gays, then the bakery is clearly in the wrong.

Of course there will be folks who may be too pushy and annoying, marginalized people are just people after all. But how annoying is it when you're actively disciminated and pushed against? If it's a straight couple's right to book the room that's still available because it was previously refused to a gay couple, then I don't have any problems when the rights of the gay couple start overriding this privileged right of that straight couple.


Would you enter a mosque and insist om being allowed to say Christian prayers? After all, their members are allowed to pray in their way.
Do you insist on using ladies toilets? After all, women are allowed to pee there.
All I am saying is that everyone has the right to their beliefs and it is not for any particular person or group to impose their own belief upon others when it is not causing them any problems. In the case of the hotel, the gay couple deliberately chose that particular hotel being fully aware of its status and there being others available. I notice there is no comment on an able bodied person being denied toilet facilities when there are disabled facilities only available...

I could go one forever but I will not post anymore on this thread. Positive discrimination is just as bad as negative and Buz is absolute right about the pendulum, it never stops.
noll
"insensitive prick!" – Danielle Algo
Quote by Annamagique

Would you enter a mosque and insist om being allowed to say Christian prayers? After all, their members are allowed to pray in their way.
Do you insist on using ladies toilets? After all, women are allowed to pee there.
All I am saying is that everyone has the right to their beliefs and it is not for any particular person or group to impose their own belief upon others when it is not causing them any problems. In the case of the hotel, the gay couple deliberately chose that particular hotel being fully aware of its status and there being others available. I notice there is no comment on an able bodied person being denied toilet facilities when there are disabled facilities only available...

I could go one forever but I will not post anymore on this thread. Positive discrimination is just as bad as negative and Buz is absolute right about the pendulum, it never stops.


I wouldn't go to a mosque demanding to say Christian prayers, because I'm an atheist. Has there been a case like that?
Neither would I go to the ladies toilets, because I don't feel the need to do so as a cis man. But if the need is high and it's the only option then I definitely would. I think that unisex toilets are a good idea btw, or let people choose themselves, based on their gender identity instead of their sex.
The example you gave about the able bodied person being denied access to the disabled facilities, when those are the only ones, is insane of course. I'm curious about who was denying them access, the owner/staff, disabled people?

Of course everyone is entitled to their own believes, but when you dscriminate you are by definition imposing your believes upon others. So why is that OK then? How did the gay couple know their booking would be refused if it had not already happened to other gays or if the owners hadn't put a message out? And if it's the latter, how different is that from a sign that says "No Irish, No Blacks, No Dogs"?


http://obv.org.uk/sites/default/files/imagecache/350x230/images/No-Irish-No-Blacks-No-Dogs_0.jpg

The civil rights movement in the '50s and '60s also deliberately chose segregated establishments for their sit-ins. I don't see why gays should be silent about establishments that treat them less than equal to anyone else. If being treated equal is seen as positive discrimination then we still have a very long way to go.


===  Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER  ===
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Lurker
This old can of worms!!!

A STRAIGHT raised Catholic Irishman, (now atheist) who HAS HAD same-sex (pleasurable) experiences and who HAS EXPERIENCED both Anti-Irish and Anti-Catholic racism AS WELL AS considerable general FLAK for being an occasionally flamboyant SHOWILY CAMP individual... (Read GAY!) I'm really NOT SURE...

I DO NOT THINK that a hard-line CHRISTIAN bakery, (for example) should be prosecuted under the law for REFUSING to provide a wedding cake to a same-sex couple.

I DO NOT THINK that a Guest House or hotel should HAVE TO accommodate a same sex couple IF THAT GOES AGAINST THEIR CREDO...

These are SOCIO-RELIGIOUS beliefs that WHILE PERHAPS NOT MORALLY ACCEPTABLE should not be ILLEGAL.

Try This One:

I DO NOT BELIEVE that a JEWISH stationery company should be obliged UNDER THE LAW to accept a print run for a Nazi pamphlet or poster.

BUT, "NO IRISH, NO BLACKS, NO DOGS" (and that happened IN MY LIFETIME IN ENGLAND) Should and MUST BE ILLEGAL!!! Because that doesn't go for a quasi-moral or Religious belief but PURELY from a RACIST PERSPECTIVE...

POLITICAL or MORAL differences, HOWEVER MISGUIDED, must be the allowed property of the individual.


The OBVIOUS QUESTION THEN is that should we allow 'No Jews, No Muslims, No Catholics'? (And of course that's NOT ACCEPTABLE...)


But like I said, it's a can of worms... I thought LONG AND HARD over posting this. It's CLEAR, (I HOPE) that I'm deeply conflicted here...

Help me out? As the initial poster asked, offer your thoughts?


xx SF
noll
"insensitive prick!" – Danielle Algo
Quote by stephanie


This old can of worms!!!

A STRAIGHT raised Catholic Irishman, (now atheist) who HAS HAD same-sex (pleasurable) experiences and who HAS EXPERIENCED both Anti-Irish and Anti-Catholic racism AS WELL AS considerable general FLAK for being an occasionally flamboyant SHOWILY CAMP individual... (Read GAY!) I'm really NOT SURE...

I DO NOT THINK that a hard-line CHRISTIAN bakery, (for example) should be prosecuted under the law for REFUSING to provide a wedding cake to a same-sex couple.

I DO NOT THINK that a Guest House or hotel should HAVE TO accommodate a same sex couple IF THAT GOES AGAINST THEIR CREDO...

These are SOCIO-RELIGIOUS beliefs that WHILE PERHAPS NOT MORALLY ACCEPTABLE should not be ILLEGAL.

Try This One:

I DO NOT BELIEVE that a JEWISH stationery company should be obliged UNDER THE LAW to accept a print run for a Nazi pamphlet or poster.

BUT, "NO IRISH, NO BLACKS, NO DOGS" (and that happened IN MY LIFETIME IN ENGLAND) Should and MUST BE ILLEGAL!!! Because that doesn't go for a quasi-moral or Religious belief but PURELY from a RACIST PERSPECTIVE...

POLITICAL or MORAL differences, HOWEVER MISGUIDED, must be the allowed property of the individual.


The OBVIOUS QUESTION THEN is that should we allow 'No Jews, No Muslims, No Catholics'? (And of course that's NOT ACCEPTABLE...)


But like I said, it's a can of worms... I thought LONG AND HARD over posting this. It's CLEAR, (I HOPE) that I'm deeply conflicted here...

Help me out? As the initial poster asked, offer your thoughts?


xx SF



The best example you gave is probably the Nazi pamphlet, but that's still the same as the butcher example mentioned earlier. They wouldn't do Nazi pamphlets for anyone else either, so it's not discrimination. Hosting a gay couple or a straight couple is exactly same business wise, the only difference is the customer. And that's why it's exactly the same as the "No Irish, No Catholics" of a nasty past. If the wedding cake is just a regular wedding cake, then again the only difference is the customer. If they want a goatse* photo on top then it the bakery can probably say in all honesty that they don't do that for anyone and therefore also not for the gay couple.

* this is not how I think of homosexuals ;)


===  Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER  ===
principessa
Sophisticate
I think BiMale73 has it right. If you offer goods or services to the public, you have to offer them to everyone without prejudice. A kosher butcher cannot be faulted for not offering bacon because he does not sell it to anyone. A hotel by definition offers accommodation to the public. They have no right to discriminate among their customers based on their religious beliefs, ethnicity, language, country of origin, or several other grounds including sexual orientation. Sexual orientation has the same status as other grounds in human rights legislation.

A good example of this clash is the county clerk who refused to issue marriage licences to gay couples after the law changed. Was she correct in upholding her religious views or was she imposing them on others? The legal view is that she was in the wrong. The US Constitution clearly separates church and state. It guarantees freedom of religion for all, but not the right to impose their religious values on others in carrying out civil duties.

So, Steph, I understand your being conflicted, but sexual orientation is no different in this context than nationality or other protected grounds. Discrimination is discrimination.
Guest
Lurker
Interesting thoughts in all the replies - pretty cool to see. And I agree with the post just above - I think it is a human rights concern and as such nobody should be allowed to discriminate based on sex, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc...

I can certainly appreciate the challenge for those who have strong religious convictions and own or operate stores, restaurants, hotels etc. But as they are given the right to operate a public establishment they, just as the government, must separate church and state - and the state needs to lookout for the rights of all its citizens.

I can also appreciate those who stand up in the face of discrimination. I've never really faced it - but I've always sought to understand it. As I stated in my OP, in the real world, I am not "out" as bisexual so maybe if/when I am I will experience discrimination. And I'll admit that has me scared a bit. Career, family, kids, friends, etc.

While nice to dream, it's pretty much a pure fantasy land to think we'll see a society with no discrimination. Maybe in 3 or 4 more generations... maybe. Guess I need to be stronger - but it's not easy. Anyhow... enough of my issues... just was glad in a little way to see the OP stats. Progress is a good thing.

Thanks to all the posts and please share more.
Simmerdownchick
Creator
Quote by principessa
I think BiMale73 has it right. If you offer goods or services to the public, you have to offer them to everyone without prejudice. A kosher butcher cannot be faulted for not offering bacon because he does not sell it to anyone. A hotel by definition offers accommodation to the public. They have no right to discriminate among their customers based on their religious beliefs, ethnicity, language, country of origin, or several other grounds including sexual orientation. Sexual orientation has the same status as other grounds in human rights legislation.

A good example of this clash is the county clerk who refused to issue marriage licences to gay couples after the law changed. Was she correct in upholding her religious views or was she imposing them on others? The legal view is that she was in the wrong. The US Constitution clearly separates church and state. It guarantees freedom of religion for all, but not the right to impose their religious values on others in carrying out civil duties.

So, Steph, I understand your being conflicted, but sexual orientation is no different in this context than nationality or other protected grounds. Discrimination is discrimination.



Amen, sister! The way I see it, gay people are not pushing their being gay on religion, quite vice verse. Religious people are forcing thier beliefs on everyone else that doesn't believe as they do. I can't say that any church would allow any other religion to practice a different religion in their house of worship. If you are in business, you must not discriminate. "Love thy neighbor", and 'judge not, least ye be judged yourself" does not include the cavaiat "unless they are gay". It all looks like predjudice wrapped in religion to me. And saying that gays are stepping on the 'rights' of the pious, is like saying the Jews were getting in the way of the Nazi party or Blacks voting is tilting the vote away from the 'American way'. Also, when women got the vote, men claimed they'd only vote for the most 'handsome man." I could go on and on, but it's absolutely rediculous to think that God cares if a very religious couple honored a reservation for a gay couple celebrating their wedding night in their hotel. They arent in the room having sex with them. And not catering a gay wedding has nothing to do with putting anyones soul in jeapardy, unless you are of te opionion that gays are damned, but even then, the only 'souls in jeopardy would be the 'gay sinners', (obviously that's rediculous, he made us all the way we are.) And, where were that gay couple supposed to go? What if every hotel in the city felt that way? Are you advocating predjudice by reason of religion to deny accomdations for the night...? Hmmm...
Back in ancient times, if a poor begger needed lodging it was a sin to turn him away and not offer hospitality. And that's what we're talking about here. Hospitality. Period. No one will go to hell for selling a pizza, ad infinitum.
Sorry Anna, but I'm can't disagree with you more on this topic. I can't even tell you how upsetting it would be it I went to my doctor and he said, "I will not treat you because you are gay".
That any of this should be acceptable to anyone is shocking to me. I am a person first, and a lesbian second. Just trying to live my life, without hate and judgement. I could go on and on, but I'll stop here. This is sort of a soap box for me.

I have three famous stories, 2 recommended reads and have come in the top ten in two competitions~ Come in and make yourself at home.
Simmerdownchick
Creator
Quote by stephanie



Try This One:


BUT, "NO IRISH, NO BLACKS, NO DOGS" (and that happened IN MY LIFETIME IN ENGLAND) Should and MUST BE ILLEGAL!!! Because that doesn't go for a quasi-moral or Religious belief but PURELY from a RACIST PERSPECTIVE...

POLITICAL or MORAL differences, HOWEVER MISGUIDED, must be the allowed property of the individual.


The OBVIOUS QUESTION THEN is that should we allow 'No Jews, No Muslims, No Catholics'? (And of course that's NOT ACCEPTABLE...)


But like I said, it's a can of worms... I thought LONG AND HARD over posting this. It's CLEAR, (I HOPE) that I'm deeply conflicted here...

Help me out? As the initial poster asked, offer your thoughts?


xx SF



Steph, American history is full of hate, racism, and intolerance. Religious groups (better known as the KKK, dressed in white cloaks, but we all know that historically these were white, church and the town leaders) actually burned crosses in the yards of black families homes, as well as hanging them, and burning thier homes down, in the name of 'God', and casting out the evil to save their towns. The black man was a threat to them the way gays are a threat to them now.
It's a slippery slope heart

I have three famous stories, 2 recommended reads and have come in the top ten in two competitions~ Come in and make yourself at home.
Simmerdownchick
Creator
Quote by Annamagique
It does please me that Christian groups are becoming more accepting of homosexuals but I do have one concern. When will homosexuals become more accepting of Christian beliefs.
As an example, two homosexuals who sued a small Christian hotel and destroyed their business and took away their income. Could they not just have accepted their beliefs in the way that they wanted to be accepted for their own and use a different hotel?
This is not a dig at anyone as I believe that everyone has right to be whoever they are or wish to be but not at the expense of others.
Traditional London buses were taken out of service because they were not accessible to disabled people even though there were plenty of others (on the same route) that were.
It seems that all minority groups want to force their rights on everyone and in the end, everyone loses.
I know of a coffee shop where the only toilet is a disabled one and able bodied people are not allowed to use it.
I hope no-one is offended by this as that is not my intention but these things work both ways whether it be Race, Creed or ability.



Anna, as a lesbian, therefore a minority, I can say that I'm not trying to force my 'rights' on anyone. I'm trying to claim an even footing with the rest of the western world. And I know you don't mean to offend, and I'm not offended.
You make the point that a Jewish Deli would refuse to sell me a ham doesn't even make sense. They don't serve ham, but they do provide service to their paying Christian customers.

You said "It seems that all minority groups want to force their rights on everyone and in the end, everyone loses."
To that I strongly disagree. When the African Americans fought for their civil rights, did it not have very postive results for everyone? Jackie Robinson was the first Black American to be drafted into the Major Leagues in Baseball, and now we have hundreds of GREAT baseball players that are positive role models for children. Also, if the women of the middle east were to finally be allowed freedom and equality would their society not improve? Countries where woman cannot be outside without a male family member and must wear a burka make up HALF of the population of those countries. How many great minds have and are being wasted? Who knows, one of them might have discovered the cure for cancer.
So, no, everyone wins. It's control and the fear of losing it that keeps others down.

P.S. Sorry I posted so much. I'm a self admitted bi polar obsessive and sometimes opionated lesbian. And a bit compulsive at that. ❤️

I have three famous stories, 2 recommended reads and have come in the top ten in two competitions~ Come in and make yourself at home.
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Lurker
Quote by Simmerdownchick



This is the kind of response I'm interested in... The thing is, I'M NOT SURE how I feel about ELEMENTS of this issue. I'm gonna dig myself in deeper here, but I stress, I'm commenting as much to EXPLORE my own thoughts here...

A Christian Court Clerk in Southern USA refuses to issue marriage certs to same sex couples, despite that these unions are LEGAL in her County.. My attitude: "Fuck off and find a new job you bigot."

A private bakery run by Christians refuses to accept an order for a same-sex wedding cake. My attitude: "You ARE within your rights to do this as it's a private enterprise, BUT, Fuck Off, I won't be eating your donughts..."

A privately owned guest house refuses to accommodate Muslim guests. My attitude: "Fuck off full stop!"

(An Atheist myself, I have no desire to FORCE my beliefs onto others. While disagreeing with the tenets of many religious people and groups, I DO FEEL it's necessary to protect those beliefs, with the proviso that I AM NOT FORCED to bow to those beliefs. Unless of course those beliefs/practices are ILLEGAL under secular/civil law.)

Ahh... I'm tripping myself up, aren't I???

(More thoughts necessary, please, Friends...)


xx SF
noll
"insensitive prick!" – Danielle Algo
Quote by stephanie
A privately owned guest house refuses to accommodate Muslim guests. My attitude: "Fuck off full stop!"

...<snip/>...

Ahh... I'm tripping myself up, aren't I???


You seem to be tripping up a bit indeed, unless you really believe that it's OK to refuse gays a room but not Muslims. To me that's about the same as refusing black or disabled people a room, but welcoming communists, conservatives or (a)theists. The former are labeled by something they don't have a choice in, while for the latter it is by choice. And even if homosexuals and Muslims have as much of a choice in what group they belong to, then you're still making a distinction between those groups: Muslims seem to belong to a 'not to be discrimiated against' group while gays seem to form a 'free to disciminate against' group. That begs the question: what's makes the difference for you and why should it have that particular consequence? Is religion more important than sexuality? There are probably more people in the world with a sexuality than with a religion.


===  Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER  ===
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Quote by BiMale73


You seem to be tripping up a bit indeed, unless you really believe that it's OK to refuse gays a room but not Muslims. To me that's about the same as refusing black or disabled people a room, but welcoming communists, conservatives or (a)theists. The former are labeled by something they don't have a choice in, while for the latter it is by choice. And even if homosexuals and Muslims have as much of a choice in what group they belong to, then you're still making a distinction between those groups: Muslims seem to belong to a 'not to be discrimiated against' group while gays seem to form a 'free to disciminate against' group. That begs the question: what's makes the difference for you and why should it have that particular consequence? Is religion more important than sexuality? There are probably more people in the world with a sexuality than with a religion.



You are missing the point OF MY POST. (Notice I don't use the word ARGUMENT (in the legal sense) because I have made it clear that I have not formulated a cogent position...) But, with the help of comments like yours, I'm getting there...

RACE is more or less ABSOLUTE. Sexuality, likewise. RELIGION is a matter of CHOICE. (So, to discriminate against people BY VIRTUE of RACE OR SEXUALITY we can establish, (THROUGH A THOUGHT OUT DISCOURSE LIKE THS ONE!) is fundamentally wrong... I'm THERE! (I'm with YOU on THAT ONE!)

What THEN of a DEEPLY HELD RELIGIOUS CONVICTION?

(I WANT to respect differing beliefs WHERE THEY DON'T impinge upon the freedom of others. I BELIEVE IN FREEDOM OF BELIEF!!!)

But we are getting to THE NUB of this.

FUNDAMENTALISTS of ALL FAITHS must be first understood and then if necessary, challenged. (I can UNDERSTAND your position, even SYMPATHIZE WITH A FAULTY VIEWPOINT, but ultimately I MUST CHALLENGE THAT VIEWPOINT IF I TRULY BELIVE it is detrimental to a wider secular society...)

And NOW I SOUND LIKE A FUNDEMENTALIST!!! (JESUS!) Pun Intended...

So here's what I think:

Discrimination OF ANY KIND, be it racial, sexual, religious, OR OF ANY OTHER NATURE must be PROHIBITED BY LAW whether or not it manifests itself IN PUBLIC OR IS INDEED PRACTICED OR EXPRESSED in a manner that might impact upon others.


(To ME, that's a VERY SCARY STATEMENT. A LIFELONG anti-facist, I am TERRIFIED at statements of the ABSOLUTE.)

But that's where I am.

Thanks for the help.


xx SF

(QUICK EDIT!!!)

Initially in THE BOLDED STATEMENT I used the term, "that might offend or impact..." That's incorrect. YOU ARE ALLOWED TO OFFEND ME!!! (You are NOT ALLOWED to impact upon how I live my life...)

Just to Get It Right!


xx SF
Unknown User
My, my... some interesting points of view but my own point seems to have been lost in all of this.
The point being that it NOT alright to discriminate against ANYONE.
Therefore, and I use gay as a reference but mean it to apply to any ideology, It is NOT alright to prevent people's CHRISTIAN beliefs any more than other people's Gay beliefs, or Muslim beliefs, or Jewish beliefs, etc.
It Is far from alright to trample over anyone's wishes just to get your own when all things are generally accepted.
Should we say then that if Christians truly believe that being gay is wrong then we should ban Christianity? Even if they accept that Gay people are able to practice freely? Should they not be allowed their beliefs also in their own places.
Should we also frown upon Music of Black origin (MOBO) or Jamaican Origin (MOJO) because it doesn't include whites music? After all there are no MOWO awards.
All I am trying to say is that where there are ten hotels with available rooms but one of those is Christian, why go there? Why not just use one of the other nine hotels and leave the small one to itself?

This really is my last post on this. I see that those of you who are so adamant about rights are mainly American. Maybe things are different there with far more widespread prejudices but, here in the UK, pretty much all groups are able to practice without any problems so there really is absolutely no need to go looking for individuals for a 'public flogging' as was the hotel example I opened with.
I think that of all you, Buzz is the only one who actually understood the point I was making.

And so, I would like to wish all of you, Gay, Straight, Black, White, Muslim, Jew, able-bodied or not...
A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A PEACEFUL AND JOYOUS NEW YEAR!
principessa
Sophisticate
What does the memorial for the main synagogue in Munich have to do with anything you said?
Guest
Lurker
Quote by Annamagique

The point being that it NOT alright to discriminate against ANYONE.






AHHHH, but if you read CAREFULLY you'll see that your POST and the discussion it prompted made AT LEAST THIS POSTER come around to EXACTLY the point you've made above!


xx SF
Guest
Lurker
Quote by Annamagique
It is NOT alright to prevent people's CHRISTIAN beliefs any more than other people's Gay beliefs, or Muslim beliefs, or Jewish beliefs, etc.
[/img]


But WHAT IF those CHRISTIAN or MUSLIM beliefs DEMONISE you because you are gay? (Some Muslim states EXECUTE people UNDER THE LAW for simply being gay...) In some CHRISTIAN countries like RUSSIA gay hate crime is endemic.


xx SF

(You don't get off THAT EASY!!!)
Buz
The Linebacker
Quote by principessa
What does the memorial for the main synagogue in Munich have to do with anything you said?


If I understand what she's demonstrating is that memorial is a symbol of intolerance at its worst and we as a human race will experience that kind of intolerance again.... as the pendulum swings toward another extreme. And truthfully there is and always has been that kind of intolerance going on somewhere in the world, but while our western society has come a long way, currently, at fighting that kind of intolerance, it will be back in some form in the future.

At the speed of change in our world it can happen quickly. So to everyone, how far are you willing to go to fight for and protect the rights of people whose beliefs, religion, lack of religion or different lifestyles run counter to yours. Or will you just sit by as you watch their rights taken away from them? Remember, how the masses did nothing as the Nazis, bit by bit, began their persecution of the Jewish people. That kind of thing will happen again and we may live to witness it.
Guest
Lurker
Quote by Buz


If I understand what she's demonstrating is that memorial is a symbol of intolerance at its worst and we as a human race will experience that kind of intolerance again.... as the pendulum swings toward another extreme. And truthfully there is and always has been that kind of intolerance going on somewhere in the world, but while our western society has come a long way, currently, at fighting that kind of intolerance, it will be back in some form in the future.

At the speed of change in our world it can happen quickly. So to everyone, how far are you willing to go to fight for and protect the rights of people whose beliefs, religion, lack of religion or different lifestyles run counter to yours. Or will you just sit by as you watch their rights taken away from them? Remember, how the masses did nothing as the Nazis, bit by bit, began their persecution of the Jewish people. That kind of thing will happen again and we may live to witness it.


I'm GOING TO GO OFF ON A STEPHANIE!!!

So, I started off by saying, "LET THE BIGOTS HATE THE FAGGOTS WHO REALLY CARES?" (I'm being facetious to make THE POINT.) MOST OF US DON'T BUY THAT SO WHO CARES???


That's NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!!


(The discussion here has ACTUALLY concentrated my thoughts on this issue...)

COMPLACENCY IS NOT ENOUGH!!!

You are a BAKER. YOU REFUSE TO BAKE A CAKE FOR A GAY COUPLE. (Then you are BREAKING THE FUCKING LAW AND I WANT YOU OUT OF BUSINESS!!!)

"But I'm a CHRISTIAN and I have kids and I....."

THEN BAKE THE MOTHERFUCKING CAKE AND SHUT UP!


"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

Pastor Martin Niemoller (Who spent the years 1939-45 imprisoned in a Nazi concentration camp for speaking out against the facists.)


xx SF
noll
"insensitive prick!" – Danielle Algo
Quote by stephanie
So here's what I think:

Discrimination OF ANY KIND, be it racial, sexual, religious, OR OF ANY OTHER NATURE must be PROHIBITED BY LAW whether or not it manifests itself IN PUBLIC OR IS INDEED PRACTICED OR EXPRESSED in a manner that might impact upon others.


To make sure I didn't miss it this time: you made turn from our first post where you stated:

Quote by stephanie
I DO NOT THINK that a Guest House or hotel should HAVE TO accommodate a same sex couple IF THAT GOES AGAINST THEIR CREDO...

Right?

People can of course change their position, and it's refreshing to see someone do it in a public online forum (kudos to you!), but it can also be confusing ('did they change position or am I just confused about what they're saying?') ;)


Quote by stephanie
Thanks for the help.


You too. Always interesting duscussions about where the line should be when the rights of one group trump the rights of others.


===  Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER  ===
Simmerdownchick
Creator
Quote by Annamagique
My, my... some interesting points of view but my own point seems to have been lost in all of this.
The point being that it NOT alright to discriminate against ANYONE.
Therefore, and I use gay as a reference but mean it to apply to any ideology, It is NOT alright to prevent people's CHRISTIAN beliefs any more than other people's Gay beliefs, or Muslim beliefs, or Jewish beliefs, etc.
It Is far from alright to trample over anyone's wishes just to get your own when all things are generally accepted.
Should we say then that if Christians truly believe that being gay is wrong then we should ban Christianity? Even if they accept that Gay people are able to practice freely? Should they not be allowed their beliefs also in their own places.
Should we also frown upon Music of Black origin (MOBO) or Jamaican Origin (MOJO) because it doesn't include whites music? After all there are no MOWO awards.
All I am trying to say is that where there are ten hotels with available rooms but one of those is Christian, why go there? Why not just use one of the other nine hotels and leave the small one to itself?

This really is my last post on this. I see that those of you who are so adamant about rights are mainly American. Maybe things are different there with far more widespread prejudices but, here in the UK, pretty much all groups are able to practice without any problems so there really is absolutely no need to go looking for individuals for a 'public flogging' as was the hotel example I opened with.
I think that of all you, Buzz is the only one who actually understood the point I was making.

And so, I would like to wish all of you, Gay, Straight, Black, White, Muslim, Jew, able-bodied or not...
A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A PEACEFUL AND JOYOUS NEW YEAR!








Anna, I promise, I did not miss your point. And insinuating that my POV is because I'm American surprises me. I really thought that Europians, especially the British were more accepting than we are. I think it's very important to point out that no one, gay OR straight, is trying to 'change others beliefs'. We are challenging the motives of their discrimination. It's just like Steph said, this would not be an issue if Muslims came in looking for lodging. Mary Magdeline was a whore, for christs sake. I really don't believe your discriminating, I know how accepting you are; but your post makes it sound like you arent open to hearing the other side of this arguement. You've made up your mind and it's evident every time you say 'You are missing my point" to everyone that disagrees.

I know PLENTY of Christian people that do not feel the way you do about this. This is a HUMAN RIGHTS issue, not a Religious issue, because NO ONE is trying to keep anyone from practicing their religion. Last I heard, there are no scriptures in the Bible saying 'if you serve the heretic' youre damned. But it does say that ALL sins are equal. Leviticus also said not to wear fibers of mixed fabrics, Leviticus 15:19 states; 19When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening. 20'Everything also on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean, and everything on which she sits shall be unclean.…

This should not even be a debate. Again, i'm shocked to hear that we Americans, (according to you, if I read it right) are more open minded than the British. Wow...

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sprite
Her Royal Spriteness
a few thoughts. Christians, in this country, have had rights for roughly 250 years. gays have had equivalent rights for, roughly, 6 months. can't really remember the last time i read about an actual hate crime vs someone because they were christian, while i recall, vividly, the hate crimes committed against lgbtq folk. forgive me if don't show a lot of sympathy - btw, i was raised christian - i left when i realized i wasn't welcome.

You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.