Quote by TonyZ
After same gender marriage equality and all the issues that surround it (insurance benefits, succession laws, society's recognition, and a long etc...) is completely conquered and accepted, what do you think is the next step in terms of equal rights that has to be fought?
Is marriage equality the last frontier or should we fight for work force placement and education as recognized minority?
Is there anything else other than marriage, labor and education?
Quote by NickiC
I think it would be adoption laws.
Quote by dpw
For me the final frontier has always been the education of children, to make them understand that the world is a huge mix. That because a person is different that doesn't make them bad or a threat to society.
Quote by dpw
No upsets today I hope.
Quote by NickiC
I think it would be adoption laws.
Quote by dpw
Don't hate me for this but at the moment I am vehemently opposed to gay men adopting. I realise I'm setting myself up as a target but it is a strongiy held opinion that it isn't in the best interest of a child.
Quote by naughtynurse
Why? I'm certain you have reasons.
Quote by dpw
With same sex parents there will always be a lack of maternal or paternal instincts, there is a lack of one type of role model for gender behaviour. Children learn this both consciously and subconsciously. There is an even greater problem if one of the children is the opposite sex to the parents, the parents have never experienced things that the child is.
Now all these are not insurmountable as can be demonstrated by lone parents but they would be placed in that position as opposed to finding themselves in it. However by far the biggest reason is the prejudice they are likely to face, from other children, parents and society in general. Until there's full acceptance that sexual orientation doesn't matter, it will always be the children who suffer.
Quote by She
I think I do understand what you are saying, and your post is concerne about children, and honestly I think you are speaking out of fear for them. But fear is still just fear.
Hear me out, because I do have great respect for little people and am concderned in general for the future generations. But to bubble children up, trying to protect them from outer world is not the right way. World is changing all the time and children should learn that from the start. There are tons of people who shouldn't have children at all (I really love to say; just because we can breed that doesn't mean we should) who really damaged little ones physicaly, emotionaly and mentaly.
Adoption laws are strict enough and there really is no reason why gey couples shouldn't have a child. Believe me, you don't need to be a parent to have maternal instict, not at all. I am actually one of them. I don't nor do I want children, however I am around kids long enough to assure you that my maternal insticts are stonger than some parents have.
Society is changing and the only way to 'make' new generation with healthy open minded views is to provide them the opportunities where they can learn and experiance new and different from obsolescence.
Quote by seeker4
Adoption by same sex couples is legal and becoming common in Canada (I know a married lesbian couple who adopted their second child). So that frontier has been explored here.
The next frontier for Canada is transgender rights. While gays and lesbians pretty much have full legal rights in Canada at this point (though there are still battles to be fought where groups or individuals, even some local governments, are still resisting implementing those rights or deny them under various constitutional protections like freedom of religion), transgendered persons still face an uphill battle in a lot of areas. Indeed, they face some of the battles that gays and lesbians have already won. For instance, the bill to add transgendered persons explicitly to anti-discrimination and anti-hate laws federally keeps dying on the order paper. It has support in both houses of our Parliament (allegedly, though if it really did, it should have passed by now) but keeps getting low balled and dies on the order paper when Parliament is prorogued or an election is called. Some provincial human rights codes do explicitly protect them, though, and courts have generally recognized their rights as being consititutionally protected when cases about tg rights have reached them.
Quote by naughtynurse
Speaking as a single parent: I can say that my kids are balanced individuals. They aren't lacking either maternal or paternal influences in their lives. We don't live in a vacuum.
Awhile back, I was assigned this topic in a public speaking class, my assigned position was against gay marriage. I will tell you I thought this would the best way to defend my assigned position. Guess what?It was difficult at best to find empirical evidence of this for the very reason I mentioned. Very people live in a vacuum. I found a few metasynthesis reviews, but no meta-analysis.
Quote by dpw
Firstly I'm not saying that a child with only one parent is not well rounded, that depends on the parent. I know this, my sister brought up 2 children on her own and both are successful and both are wonderful parents themselves now.
However, children with a single parent are very common these days. Divorce is commonplace as are single women who have children, they are not treated as they were before WW2 when they were shunned. These kids are also with a natural parent, adopted kids aren't they are placed there.
Saying that your kids have paternal influence infers that the father plays a role in their lives which is great. Where does the maternal influence come from with 2 gay guys?
I've just posted that it became legal to adopt 8 years ago in England but gay marriage will become legal next year, to me that is the wrong way round. I've become in favour of gay marriage over the last few years. I know that in the future I will support it but not yet.
Quote by naughtynurse
divorced children only became accepted as they infiltrated society. That is the only way things become accepted.
I'm sure there are many children waiting to be adopted who would prefer any home with caring parents then their options.
Quote by dpw
With same sex parents there will always be a lack of maternal or paternal instincts, there is a lack of one type of role model for gender behaviour. Children learn this both consciously and subconsciously. There is an even greater problem if one of the children is the opposite sex to the parents, the parents have never experienced things that the child is.
Now all these are not insurmountable as can be demonstrated by lone parents but they would be placed in that position as opposed to finding themselves in it. However by far the biggest reason is the prejudice they are likely to face, from other children, parents and society in general. Until there's full acceptance that sexual orientation doesn't matter, it will always be the children who suffer.
You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.
Quote by TonyZ
I am so sorry to disagree with you AGAIN! Please watch the following youtube video, and if this kid's speach does not bring a tear to your eye and make you change your opinion, I do not know what will... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLnn96n3Lpg
Quote by TonyZ
I am so sorry to disagree with you AGAIN! Please watch the following youtube video, and if this kid's speach does not bring a tear to your eye and make you change your opinion, I do not know what will... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLnn96n3Lpg
Quote by dpw
Trust me on this one 100 videos won't change my mind only time will. Sorry you know I'm open to most things but not this.
Quote by dpw
Don't hate me for this but at the moment I am vehemently opposed to gay men adopting. I realise I'm setting myself up as a target but it is a strongiy held opinion that it isn't in the best interest of a child.
You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.
Quote by sprite
so, it's better for the kids to get placed into the foster system?
Quote by dpw
Trust me on this one 100 videos won't change my mind only time will. Sorry you know I'm open to most things but not this.
Quote by dpw
Don't hate me for this but at the moment I am vehemently opposed to gay men adopting. I realise I'm setting myself up as a target but it is a strongiy held opinion that it isn't in the best interest of a child.
Quote by dpw
I agree with a lot you say and yes I am concerned about the welfare of the kids. I don't agree with bubble wrapping kids, they learn by experience but I believe in not making it harder than it already is. I also agree that some parents aren't fit to have children, in fact they see them as a source of income or a tool to use as leverage. Unfortunately nature doesn't take this into account and society is left to pick up the pieces.
I also agree that society is changing slowly but I don't agree with using children as an experiment, I'd rather wait until society is ready for adoption not force it on them.
Quote by Ruthie
According to Children’s Bureau of the Administration for Children and Families of the United States Department of Health and Human Services, there are 123,000 children considered orphans awaiting adoption in the U. S. If you feel that it is in the best interest of a child to be raised in an institution, a group home or be shuttled about from foster home to foster home rather than adopted by loving gay parent's, you have obviously not spent much time considering your position.
You say that your primary concern is for the children. There are plenty of studies that say that children raised by two gay parents are as well adjusted as children raised by heterosexual parents.
The study: Can Gay and Lesbian Parents Promote Healthy Development in High-Risk Children Adopted From Foster Care? done by Justin A. Lavner, Jill Waterman and Letitia Anne Peplau showed that there is much benefit for children, even at risk children, from being adopted, and that it didn't matter if they were adopted into hetrosexual or homosexual homes.
"Adoption is known to promote cognitive and emotional development in children from foster care, but policy debates remain regarding whether children adopted by gay and lesbian parents can achieve these positive outcomes. This study compared the cognitive development and behavior problems at 2, 12, and 24 months postplacement of 82 high-risk children adopted from foster care in heterosexual and gay or lesbian households. On average, children in both household types showed significant gains in cognitive development and maintained similar levels of behavior problems over time, despite gay and lesbian parents raising children with higher levels of biological and environmental risks prior to adoptive placement. Results demonstrated that high-risk children show similar patterns of development over time in heterosexual and gay and lesbian adoptive households."
Every major children's health and welfare organization, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Child Welfare League of America, the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the National Association of Social Workers, and the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, confirms that gay parents make good parents. The American Medical Association, the nation's largest and most well respected association of physicians, with a membership of more than 200,000, agrees.
I think you're carrying around a dangerous prejudice. You may be letting your personal feelings about gay men interfere with reason. If you are so prejudiced against gay men that you are unwilling to accept evidence that they make good parents, you don't really have an informed opinion, just a prejudice.
Quote by Ruthie
According to Children’s Bureau of the Administration for Children and Families of the United States Department of Health and Human Services, there are 123,000 children considered orphans awaiting adoption in the U. S. If you feel that it is in the best interest of a child to be raised in an institution, a group home or be shuttled about from foster home to foster home rather than adopted by loving gay parent's, you have obviously not spent much time considering your position.
You say that your primary concern is for the children. There are plenty of studies that say that children raised by two gay parents are as well adjusted as children raised by heterosexual parents.
The study: Can Gay and Lesbian Parents Promote Healthy Development in High-Risk Children Adopted From Foster Care? done by Justin A. Lavner, Jill Waterman and Letitia Anne Peplau showed that there is much benefit for children, even at risk children, from being adopted, and that it didn't matter if they were adopted into hetrosexual or homosexual homes.
"Adoption is known to promote cognitive and emotional development in children from foster care, but policy debates remain regarding whether children adopted by gay and lesbian parents can achieve these positive outcomes. This study compared the cognitive development and behavior problems at 2, 12, and 24 months postplacement of 82 high-risk children adopted from foster care in heterosexual and gay or lesbian households. On average, children in both household types showed significant gains in cognitive development and maintained similar levels of behavior problems over time, despite gay and lesbian parents raising children with higher levels of biological and environmental risks prior to adoptive placement. Results demonstrated that high-risk children show similar patterns of development over time in heterosexual and gay and lesbian adoptive households."
Every major children's health and welfare organization, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Child Welfare League of America, the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the National Association of Social Workers, and the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, confirms that gay parents make good parents. The American Medical Association, the nation's largest and most well respected association of physicians, with a membership of more than 200,000, agrees.
I think you're carrying around a dangerous prejudice. You may be letting your personal feelings about gay men interfere with reason. If you are so prejudiced against gay men that you are unwilling to accept evidence that they make good parents, you don't really have an informed opinion, just a prejudice.
Quote by sprite
there's a lot of one parent families out there - how is growing up with 2 dads any different then growing up with only one, and no mom? 2 moms different then only one mom? there's always people of both genders around - sisters, aunts, grandparents, friends. having 2 parents of the same gender is twice as good as having only 1.
Quote by dpw
Oh I'm very prejudiced!
I AM A GAY MAN!
I'v never stated ONCE that same sex couples don't make wonderful parents. Pleas read my posts I state quite clearly that it is society that is at fault, other children and often their parents are discriminatory and cruel.
If society isn't ready I am not in favour of a child being used as a guinea pig. If and when a study is done in the UK of the children that have been adopted by same sex couples and it shows that they didn't suffer from bullying or discrimination, then and only then will I be in favour of it! If it poves the opposite then I'd hope the law would be repealed, although I doubt that would happen.
Me! Prejudiced! I didn't know whether to laugh or cry!
