Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual Stereotypes... why?

20 Nov 2013

Quote by SereneProdigy

I agree, but still these nonstereotypical homosexuals don't generally expose themselves as such and therefore won't really have an impact on others' perceptions of homosexuality. As I've said, for a lot of people the only image of homosexuals they can rely on is what is exposed at these events. Sad but true.

As I said I went on a couple of marches when it was Campaign for Homosexual Equality but the were a lot more political. I don't go on Gay Pride parades because, although they might be fun, they do portray the wrong idea of gays in society.
I can't force people to come out but until they do society will have a skewed perception of us. I repeat, for some guys it would be financial suicide, a catch 22 position: more people will be open when the position is fairer but the position won't get fairer until they are open.
There's no easy solution.0fdUx3IEgQ0HH1SK

20 Nov 2013

Quote by slipperywhenwet2012
So based on your one friend's choice to present himself as stereotypically gay for an event, you assume that most do the same? That makes sense to you?

I'm not exactly sure what you're implying here. I never said that all homosexuals participate in these parades. But most that do and dress up stereotypically do it by choice, and it's not really an accurate representation of who they are.

I don't really see a lot of homosexuals walking down the street dressed up as gladiators, angels or wearing a pink wig and high heels on an average day. There's even a gay village/neighborhood in my city ; I've been there quite a few times, and I've yet to see an homosexual that's so stereotypically gay. The guy I mentionned is the only one I know who participated in these events, but he's not the only homosexual I've known.

Still, a lot of people living in my city or the rural region surrounding it might not have the same oppurtunities I had to witness how homosexuals are like in their everyday life, for various reasons. I really wouldn't be surprised if many of them actually believed that most homosexuals are stereotypically gay, without any significant bad intentions. They might not necessarily picture them as flamboyant drag queens, but still very stereotypical. Are they the only ones to blame? That's the whole debate we're having here.

Quote by slipperywhenwet2012

For the record, as someone else has said before me (I think it was dpw) most homosexuals who do over the top things in gay pride parades and other events do so SPECIFICALLY to play up the stereotype. But surely doing so in this one event or a few others doesn't give others the right to assume all homosexuals are this way 24/7. And therefore one shouldn't assume that just because someone has fun with a nasty stereotype as a sort of 'in your face' thing doesn't mean that homosexuals go around perpetuating stereotypes for the sake of perpetuating stereotypes. They're making a statement. It'd be different if they did this in their every day lives, then it's not making a statement...it's being something you're not. That's when it becomes emulating the wrong thing.

I personally believe that gay pride events are a way for homosexuals to parody the way people have perceived them pretty much their entire lives. But obviously not everyone is going to understand that.

If someone is determined to believe a certain thing about a certain group of people, they're gonna seek out evidence that supports and justifies this belief...and they're gonna find it. But there's also evidence that points to the contrary. I prefer to look at people as individuals instead of looking at one person or even a group of individuals and then applying it to the group as a whole. And even if I misjudge an individual or a particular group of individuals, I'll blame my own ignorance instead of blaming the individuals themselves. Willful ignorance isn't my thing.

I completely agree that homosexuals in these parades do so specifically to play up the stereotype. What I'm debating here is what effect this has on the rest of the population. Homosexuals surely don't perpetuate stereotypes on purpose, but might do so unwillingly without knowing.

I've honestly seen some macho heterosexuals react to those events, and let me tell you that their reaction is not generally favorable. I truly believe that homosexuals exposing themselves stereotypically provide intolerant people quite a lot of material to justify their views and build their hatred on, while ignorant people are fed up with even more ignorance. You might say that these people are the ones to blame (I would actually agree to some degree), but waiting helplessly for them to change their perspectives out of their own goodwill won't change anything, in my honest opinion.

In his initial post, Tony was asking why such stereotypes existed, which indirectly also questioned how they can actually be diminished. My only intention was to offer something to work on, based on my own personal experience. Again, only stating that others are at fault won't change a thing, in my opinion.

Anyway, I'm done with this debate. I already stated my opinion quite explicitly, and I don't feel like justifying my every word as if my intention was to cause turmoil or provoke people. If others agree with it or not is up to them.

20 Nov 2013

I go to Pride almost every year - mostly because it's a brilliant party and I like these kinds of festivals in general. I love the crazy fun and warm attitude and yes, even the spectacle of it all. My accountant dances on one of those floats in silver holographic briefs but in regular life, he's in a suit. It's just part of the fun. I don't go trying to understand what gay people are like because I know enough of them in my personal and professional life to know that they are just like straight people, except they prefer the same sex when it comes to dating and sex. It's no different than going to Mardi Gras and assuming that all women will flash their tits for a string of cheap plastic beads when really it's just part of the festival culture.

I don't think of gay men or lesbians in terms of stereotypes, although I *do* know some gay men that fit that stereotype by no fault of their own. They're not conforming to anything - they just like fashion and clubbing and having fun. I adore them! But I don't assume they are representative of the entire gay culture. Because this small segment is the most different from what guys and preconceived masculinity are assumed to be like, they probably just stand out more and that's how the stereotypes generate and gain momentum, thus totally negating the rest of the gay population because they're not as visible and just blend in with the rest of the crowd that forms what we see as typical examples of the 'male gender' or 'female gender'. If people live sheltered lives or live in areas where coming out is still not the norm, then they will probably look for the most obvious examples, which will always be stereotypes.

20 Nov 2013

Quote by Dancing_Doll
I go to Pride almost every year - mostly because it's a brilliant party and I like these kinds of festivals in general. I love the crazy fun and warm attitude and yes, even the spectacle of it all. My accountant dances on one of those floats in silver holographic briefs but in regular life, he's in a suit. It's just part of the fun. I don't go trying to understand what gay people are like because I know enough of them in my personal and professional life to know that they are just like straight people, except they prefer the same sex when it comes to dating and sex. It's no different than going to Mardi Gras and assuming that all women will flash their tits for a string of cheap plastic beads when really it's just part of the festival culture.

I don't think of gay men or lesbians in terms of stereotypes, although I *do* know some gay men that fit that stereotype by no fault of their own. They're not conforming to anything - they just like fashion and clubbing and having fun. I adore them! But I don't assume they are representative of the entire gay culture. Because this small segment is the most different from what guys and preconceived masculinity are assumed to be like, they probably just stand out more and that's how the stereotypes generate and gain momentum, thus totally negating the rest of the gay population because they're not as visible and just blend in with the rest of the crowd that forms what we see as typical examples of the 'male gender' or 'female gender'. If people live sheltered lives or live in areas where coming out is still not the norm, then they will probably look for the most obvious examples, which will always be stereotypes.

With all due respect you are an intelligent lady who has gay friends and who meets her gay accountant when he wears a suit. You know the difference but do the Jenkins (think that's the name) brothers who kidnapped and tried to kill a gay guy named Pennington in Kentucky? Isn't stereotyping at least partly to blame for homophobic assaults and because we exaggerate the flamboyance at carnival then we perpetuate it.

21 Nov 2013

No matter which group you belong to (and I'm not just talking sexual orientation here), there is always going to be a stereotype. It's a thing that humans do. It could be for a sense of protecting oneself, it could be because of a lack of understanding, or it could just be outright stupidity. Nobody really knows why stereotypes exist, just that they do. There are myriad reasons.

21 Nov 2013

Quote by dpw

With all due respect you are an intelligent lady who has gay friends and who meets her gay accountant when he wears a suit. You know the difference but do the Jenkins (think that's the name) brothers who kidnapped and tried to kill a gay guy named Pennington in Kentucky? Isn't stereotyping at least partly to blame for homophobic assaults and because we exaggerate the flamboyance at carnival then we perpetuate it.

I know what you're saying, but by the same token, it can be argued that women who flash their breasts at Mardi Gras or who flaunt their sexuality by wearing certain clothes are being stereotyped as sluts which some idiots then see as partly responsible (or an influencer) for , assault or being objectified by men. Things like the Slut Walk bring awareness to sexual assault stereotypes. I see Pride as doing something similar for a different cause.

Now, sadly, as you mentioned, the tards and dumbasses may not see it as particularly enlightening, but just as another reason to hate. If Pride didn't exist though, would they be okay with homosexuality. Probably not. I think the key is still in education and awareness. You can argue that this requires global awareness and Pride marches (in order to get numbers) still defaults to creating a pomp and pageantry type spectacle - like Mardi Gras, Carnival etc. If it was a sombre, lowkey affair or march, nobody would show up, nor would it get the attention it does.

it's an interesting take on it though. Oddly enough I've never really questioned whether it was a good thing or not. Every gay person I know absolutely loves and endorses Pride so I've never heard the other side of the coin expressed as it being anything but positive. I feel so far removed from this 'small town homophobia' mentality that you can almost forget that it still exists before these atrocious cases in the media become reminders.

21 Nov 2013

Why?

There are gays who are out, and those that aren't. The ones that our out, tend to be VERY out. The ones that aren't, keep it to themselves. So just think about it. If you are walking down the street and see someone that is so flamboyant that everyone knows they are gay, the stereotype grows. They could have passed 10 gay guys, but if they act straight enough that no one knows they are gay, they don't fit the stereotype and it does nothing to destroy it.

Face it, everyone knows that not all gay people act a certain way. Everyone knows all black men don't have big cocks, or all Asian men have little ones. Everyone knows Jewish women don't all gossip. Everyone knows some old people drive well. Everyone knows some white men can jump and play basketball. Everyone knows all Texans don't ride horses to work or wear cowboy hats. It's generalities because enough of them do. It's how we group people, most likely because it's a protective measure. People who are most like us we feel safe around. People who are different from us we feel less so. Making those generalities helps us to set expectations when we meet someone new. For instance, you see a guy in a ski mask coming into the bank, are you going to think, "just because he's wearing a mask doesn't mean he's a thief, he could be going to a Halloween contest or going skiing," or are you going to dial 911?

As long as you understand that stereotypes are just that, and are willing to judge people for who they are, not on a stereotype, I don't see the harm.

21 Nov 2013

Quote by dpw

With all due respect you are an intelligent lady who has gay friends and who meets her gay accountant when he wears a suit. You know the difference but do the Jenkins (think that's the name) brothers who kidnapped and tried to kill a gay guy named Pennington in Kentucky? Isn't stereotyping at least partly to blame for homophobic assaults and because we exaggerate the flamboyance at carnival then we perpetuate it.

To be fair, I think these extreme occurences are a different phenomenon. To me, such people were simply looking for an easy prey to express their general hatred (which is often nothing more than self-directed frustration). If they didn't act it out on an homosexual, they might as well have acted it out on a nerd, a punk or an ethnic person. Those persons are pretty much lost causes in anything relating to tolerance or acceptance, unless they seek major psychological help, in my humble opinion.

But your intervention raises another thought for me. In a way, stereotypes can be used to create a general mental representation of a certain group of people, but in another stereotypes allow a specific person to be judged and given certain affiliations according to his appearance. We've discussed the former phenomenon at lenght previously, but only merely brushed the latter.

In the case of homosexuals, I think it can be annoying/disturbing for a person that's 'obviously gay' to be identified as such. I can't talk for everybody, but I've met some of those 'obviously gay' persons in my life ; they basically had all the stereotypes (lisping with a feminine voice, gait, mannerisms, one of them being an hairstylist, etc.). All of those traits were natural for them and out of their control, and yes, these men admitted being gay.

Most probably, the homosexual that dpw mentioned was also easily recognizable as such. I don't know the scientific explanation, but all the men I've seen who displayed those traits happened to be gay (maybe someone here has a different experience?). Surely these men wished at some point they could 'hide' their homosexuality, but probably had a lot of people through their life saying to them things like "You're gay right? Come on, admit it!", which most probably forced them to admit their homosexuality eventually.

These men would probably tend to blame stereotypes for allowing people to identify them as being gay, but as I've said, it can be hard for others not to see any connection. As Kinky_Becky mentioned, I think everybody establishes generalities to help us perceive and react to the world ; it's a very natural/basic instinct, no ways around it.

To me, the biggest issue is not really that stereotypes exist, but how some people might act according to them or use them to offend others. Each one of us relies on generalities that we build according to our own personal experiences ; these are essentially our own and help us understand the world. The problem arises when we try to impose our perceptions to others as an objective truth, mingle into others' affairs without shame, or use these generalities to fuel hateful arguments.

21 Nov 2013

Quote by Dancing_Doll
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Now, sadly, as you mentioned, the tards and dumbasses may not see it as particularly enlightening, but just as another reason to hate. If Pride didn't exist though, would they be okay with homosexuality. Probably not. I think the key is still in education and tolerance. You can argue that this requires global awareness and Pride marches (in order to get numbers) still defaults to creating a pomp and pageantry type spectacle - like Mardi Gras, Carnival etc. If it was a sombre, lowkey affair or march, nobody would show up, nor would it get the attention it does.

it's an interesting take on it though. Oddly enough I've never really questioned whether it was a good thing or not. Every gay person I know absolutely loves and endorses Pride so I've never heard the other side of the coin expressed as it being anything but positive. I feel so far removed from this 'small town homophobia' mentality that you can almost forget that it still exists before these atrocious cases in the media become reminders.

I think there are many different levels of hate and intolerance. As I've mentioned in my previous post, some people are just hateful persons that hate just about anything ; those would hate homosexuals no matter what. Some of them are very hateful/intolerant, but are just not crazy enough to act on it. But I think many others are simply uneducated, for various reasons.

I think people such as us enjoy believing that we're tolerant to homosexuality by choice, but speaking for myself I pretty much grew up in 'winning conditions' : I come from a rather liberal family, I grew up in a major city and was always exposed to cultural phenomenons, I'm from a generation that's overall more tolerant than the preceding one, I've been part of scenes/domains where I've met many homosexuals, etc. I'm not sure I'd be as tolerant if my life experiences were the opposite of that, no matter my decisions or level of goodwill. Yet still, I could be educated about homosexuality to compensate for that lacking experience. I've met many people that were rather intolerant to homosexuality, but that were also overall 'good' people that wouldn't hurt others aimlessly.

Concerning Pride marches, I think the main issue is this : basically those who rally to it were already tolerant before, and those who were intolerant/uneducated remain intolerant/uneducated. As I've said much earlier in this thread, I think that organizing the event in such an extravagent manner has both advantages and disadvantages. But I do believe that the way it is now doesn't really educate people or help eliminating stereotypes.

If I was a movie director, hired heterosexuals to play a crowd of homosexuals, and presented those 'fake homosexuals' as gays appear in those events, most probably I'd be criticized for perpetuating stereotypes. I just don't see why homosexuals presenting themselves as such wouldn't have the same effect, especially since they're in fact real homosexuals acting according to their own will.

23 Nov 2013

I have a cousin(love him to death) who is the stereotype but I have friends you would never guess. I think we live in a narrow society that has to find a way to make sense of people who are unlike them. There are so many ways to live life and most mainstream people don't know that.

20 Dec 2013

This is an ad for healthcare.gov... is it using stereotypes? Does this promote stereotypes or no different than Victoria Secret fashion show? "Out2Enroll Presents... 'Get Enrolled', A Full Frontal Freedom Production"

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates