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US Presidential election

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Quote by RowanThorn

I really don’t care what you do. I’m addressing what you said, not you.

???

Ignore who you want or be opposed to the viewpoints of those you view as trolls all you like. But please don't play the "I'm not talking to you game", especially when responding to and/or directly quoting someone.

As you said, this is a public forum, where all are free to chime in, as you're well aware. If you're opposed to certain viewpoints/voices, use your block feature and keep it moving.

Don't engage and then whine under the guise of being above it all.

As for anyone else, if you can't make your point without senseless trolling and/or disgusting insults (I literally read adults refer to another human being as a fucking monkey and then act completely nonchalant when it was pointed out, and then double down on the monkey insult, holy shit), then you need not participate.

"What is the quality of your intent?" - Thurgood Marshall


Quote by WellMadeMale

If that's all you gather from skimming my posts concerning Biden vs Trump, you'd be better served ignoring everything that flies off my fingers. I campaigned for Bernie Sanders in 2015-16 until he dropped out of the nomination race. I also supported Bernie in 2020, again, until the Dems shut the door on him.

We can thank Joe Biden for many political catastrophes - such as Clarence Thomas making it onto the Supreme Court - after Biden joined with Republicans to humiliate, ignore and crush Anita Hill's testimony in 1991. You should probably also thank Obama for selecting Biden as his running mate in 2008 - which further elevated the verbal gaff-machine in the Dem party.

There's plenty of blame to go around when it comes to the Israeli/Palestine relationship since 1948. I have never read any positive solutions/suggestions for how Biden/America is supposed to proceed with dealing with the nationalistic warmongers who are large and in charge of the Israeli military and law enforcement. Perhaps America shouldn't have been supporting Israel with billion$ of discounts to purchase state of the art weaponry from American manufacturing profiteers. Trump didn't end any of that during his first term in office, but neither have any US Presidents going back nearly 75 years.

I get that you would feel safer if NATO was completely disbanded and all member nations split apart and Europe was ripe for the picking by Putin's war machine. Trump and Biden are a couple of assholes, they've both made numerous bad decisions over the entirety of their lifetimes. But Biden has never attempted a coup nor acted like a dictator.

For my entire lifetime, there has been at least one major war occurring somewhere in this world. And when there hasn't been one, two or three major wars (Iran vs Iraq, Korea vs NATO, genocide on the African continent in multiple different countries, Central American wars fought by proxy America/Soviet Union, too many wars and skirmishes for me to keep track of. It appears that humans are good at procreation and at killing & maiming one another.

My Biden boner is born of not wanting to see Trump anywhere near the oval office again. But you be you, youngling.

Out of curiosity, is there a reason every time I challenge your devotion to the Democratic party, you immediately jump to assuming my belief system and then make up a shit ton of "counterpoints" on my behalf to which I don't subscribe?

I ask because I've made it abundantly clear that I believe the two-party system is fucked. The Democrats become more right-leaning by the day because they're a self-serving party just like the others. Refusal to hold one's party accountable leads to the shit show that is our current election system. Downplaying the missteps of the party to which you're loyal to point the finger at another is ignorant at best.

I'm honestly baffled at why you feel so threatened every time someone rightfully points out how the Dems have been such a letdown while also acknowledging that no one sane with this country's best interests in mind wants Trump anywhere near American government. I don't need to be convinced of this, as I'm fully aware. But also, the Dems fucking suck. Biden is a shit show, just less so than Trump...for the most part.

Being a better choice than Trump as your main running point is fucking insane.

"What is the quality of your intent?" - Thurgood Marshall


This is why people who say they’re protest voting for a 3rd party to send Biden and the democrats a message about Palestinian genocide are totally full of shit. Pure virtue signaling.

18+ Only

Quote by Magical_felix

This is why people who say they’re protest voting for a 3rd party to send Biden and the democrats a message about Palestinian genocide are totally full of shit. Pure virtue signaling.

Totally, they should just abolish democracy and force people to vote the way you want them too. Why give people a choice am I right?

"A dirty book is rarely dusty"

Quote by PrincessC

Totally, they should just abolish democracy and force people to vote the way you want them too. Why give people a choice am I right?

LMAO.

Totally. Because pointing out how protest votes are counterproductive is the same thing as abolishing democracy. This isn’t a false equivalency at all.

"What is the quality of your intent?" - Thurgood Marshall


Quote by PrincessC

Totally, they should just abolish democracy and force people to vote the way you want them too. Why give people a choice am I right?

So how exactly does protest voting for a third party in America help Palestinians?

Numbers of dead Palestinians, who are mostly women, children, and elderly people are now at 40,000 since the start of the year. This largely includes bombings of refuge camps, hospitals, schools, and food distribution centers.

This was all done with American weaponry that we provided. Since that time Biden has called for unconditional extra funding of the Israeli military. Biden wishes the same deaths upon the Palestinian people as Trump.

So what does a third party protest vote do? It shows you cannot run as a left wing candidate, support a genocide, and win. It alters future party decisions on candidates. It creates the need to change policy if you want to stay in power.

And mostly I can sleep at night knowing I’m not voting for genocide. Maybe you can sleep with that but I can’t.

I don’t know why this is such a hard concept but voting for a candidate is offering your support to their policies and actions. A vote for Biden or Trump is a vote condoning the way they ran the country and the actions they’ve taken abroad.

Quote by RowanThorn

Numbers of dead Palestinians, who are mostly women, children, and elderly people are now at 40,000 since the start of the year. This largely includes bombings of refuge camps, hospitals, schools, and food distribution centers.

This was all done with American weaponry that we provided. Since that time Biden has called for unconditional extra funding of the Israeli military. Biden wishes the same deaths upon the Palestinian people as Trump.

So what does a third party protest vote do? It shows you cannot run as a left wing candidate, support a genocide, and win. It alters future party decisions on candidates. It creates the need to change policy if you want to stay in power.

And mostly I can sleep at night knowing I’m not voting for genocide. Maybe you can sleep with that but I can’t.

I don’t know why this is such a hard concept but voting for a candidate is offering your support to their policies and actions. A vote for Biden or Trump is a vote condoning the way they ran the country and the actions they’ve taken abroad.

And what about Ukraine? How does protest voting for Trump help the conflict in Ukraine? Or do they not count? And what about Americans? How does another Trump presidency help Americans?

Both would be bad for Palestinians, Trump probably worse.. but one would be more bad for literally everyone.

Smart.

Right now there are 13 million children living with hunger in the United States. I wonder what needs to happen for far left virtue signalers to sit in the street or do whatever they do to “help”.

Please.

Oh, you’re not ready for a conversation about Ukraine. Wanna talk about Bogdan Syrotiuk? America’s role in causing the war? The Obama administration’s role in escalating violence in the region? The Azov Assault Brigade? The denial of any new elections? The extreme corruption of the Ukrainian government? The banning of socialist web sites? The attack on anti-war protesters from the Ukrainian government? Zelenskyy dissolving parliament?

I don’t think you’re educated enough on the subject to hold that conversation.

Quote by RowanThorn

Oh, you’re not ready for a conversation about Ukraine. Wanna talk about Bogdan Syrotiuk? America’s role in causing the war? The Obama administration’s role in escalating violence in the region? The Azov Assault Brigade? The denial of any new elections? The extreme corruption of the Ukrainian government? The banning of socialist web sites? The attack on anti-war protesters from the Ukrainian government? Zelenskyy dissolving parliament?

I don’t think you’re educated enough on the subject to hold that conversation.

Ok cool that damn Obama! He's not even American! 🤬 Zelenskyy bad!

The question was, how does a Trump presidency help the conflict in Ukraine?

Ok go.

Quote by Magical_felix

Right now there are 13 million children living with hunger in the United States. I wonder what needs to happen for far left virtue signalers to sit in the street or do whatever they do to “help”.

Please.

Don’t worry, while the Democrats were in power out UN rep voted against making food access a human right.

But the Dems voted for a space train and $850 billion in military expenses. Like the Palestinian genocide issue, it looks like if I want a candidate that gives a damn about child hunger I’ll need to vote third party.

Quote by Magical_felix

Ok cool that damn Obama! He's not even American! 🤬 Zelenskyy bad!

The question was, how does a Trump presidency help the conflict in Ukraine?

Ok go.

And you’ve proven my point, you’re lack of response to any issue I pointed out shows you really know nothing about the region. The past or even current events outside of what pro-American news sites report. You don’t know the history or the current political climate within the country.

Quote by RowanThorn

Don’t worry, while the Democrats were in power out UN rep voted against making food access a human right.

But the Dems voted for a space train and $850 billion in military expenses. Like the Palestinian genocide issue, it looks like if I want a candidate that gives a damn about child hunger I’ll need to vote third party.

But you said you were voting for a third party so Trump would win. How would voting for a third party do anything.. are you saying the republicans will increase social services? The republicans voted against providing free lunch in schools.

Lol

Quote by RowanThorn

And you’ve proven my point, you’re lack of response to any issue I pointed out shows you really know nothing about the region. The past or even current events outside of what pro-American news sites report. You don’t know the history or the current political climate within the country.

Again… The question was, how does a Trump presidency help the conflict in Ukraine?

And also how does a Trump presidency, like you said you want, help Palestinians? You never made that clear either.

Voting for a third party is not an endorsement of Trump. It’s a vote to oppose the entire system that starves children, enforces genocide, perpetuates war for profit, and destroys the planet as a unilateral American policy regardless of which of the two parties you enforce.

Honestly you’re more aligned with Trump than I am. You enforce 95% of his policies, because it’s the same as Biden’s. You are far more of a Trump suppose than I am. You want the same things he does. You support the same far right policies that cause the issue you brought up.

Quote by RowanThorn

Voting for a third party is not an endorsement of Trump. It’s a vote to oppose the entire system that starves children, enforces genocide, perpetuates war for profit, and destroys the planet as a unilateral American policy regardless of which of the two parties you enforce.

Honestly you’re more aligned with Trump than I am. You enforce 95% of his policies, because it’s the same as Biden’s. You are far more of a Trump suppose than I am. You want the same things he does. You support the same far right policies that cause the issue you brought up.

But it is.. because voting for a third party is essentially a vote for Trump. Don’t be silly. Plus you literally said you want Trump to win. Wanting a candidate to win IS an endorsement for that candidate. You can’t have it both ways.

And you still haven’t answered how a Trump presidency would help Palestinians.

Same way the Trump victory propelled the BLM movement and radicalized the youth vote to the far left. Because the only way you can get the Democrats to oppose a crime against humanity is to have a Republican in office.

American protesters flooding the streets is the only way anything will change in Palestine. Because the function of a Biden or Trump presidency in regards to Palestine is exactly the same. A racist, genocidal colonial attack supported by people like you.

He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps perpetuate it. He who accepts evil without protesting it is really cooperating with it.

Quote by RowanThorn

Same way the Trump victory propelled the BLM movement and radicalized the youth vote to the far left. Because the only way you can get the Democrats to oppose a crime against humanity is to have a Republican in office.

American protesters flooding the streets is the only way anything will change in Palestine. Because the function of a Biden or Trump presidency in regards to Palestine is exactly the same. A racist, genocidal colonial attack supported by people like you.

He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps perpetuate it. He who accepts evil without protesting it is really cooperating with it.

Lol

Quote by RowanThorn

Same way the Trump victory propelled the BLM movement and radicalized the youth vote to the far left. Because the only way you can get the Democrats to oppose a crime against humanity is to have a Republican in office.

American protesters flooding the streets is the only way anything will change in Palestine. Because the function of a Biden or Trump presidency in regards to Palestine is exactly the same. A racist, genocidal colonial attack supported by people like you.

He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps perpetuate it. He who accepts evil without protesting it is really cooperating with it.

So you're protest voting to punish the Democrats so they can learn a lesson with a Republican's victory?

What an incredibly privileged perspective. You want an exponential amount of people to continue suffering in unfathomable ways. Ways that you, yourself, won't suffer in the slightest (at the very least, not to the extent that those will far less privilege than you will suffer), all so a political party learns a lesson. And you genuinely believe you have the moral high ground here? And don't give me that shit about "I don't wanna go with a candidate that supports genocide" while salivating at the idea that your throwaway vote yields catastrophic results because you want other people's suffering to galvanize politicians.

It would be different (still stupid, but less disgusting) if you were choosing party over principle. But you know you're using your throwaway vote to siphon votes to the Republican party so that they win, because you'll feel vindicated when things go to shit. It's quite hypocritical of you to throw away your vote because you don't want a candidate that supports genocide (fair enough), but your intention is that there's even more suffering to teach the Democrats a lesson. How is that better?

Your "stance" is so empty. "I'm voting third party because I refuse to support a candidate who is funding a genocide, because I know the Republicans, who will also continue to fund a genocide and bring about even more suffering and the loss of rights in ways that ultimately won't impact me, will win, and teach the other party a lesson."

Ew.

"What is the quality of your intent?" - Thurgood Marshall


Quote by Dani

I believe we had reached the "I'm voting third party so the suffering of others will teach the Democrats a lesson when the Republicans win" part of the conversation before we all got sidetracked.

That’s the part that I find the most crazy.

Like they expect Trump winning will make Palestine hold out for 5 years while the Green Party wins the presidency, senate and house because people will be THAT mad at Trump?

Quote by Magical_felix

That’s the part that I find the most crazy.

Like they expect Trump winning will make Palestine hold out for 5 years while the Green Party wins the presidency, senate and house because people with be THAT mad at Trump?

I'm just more concerned about the people being offered up as martyrs for this cause. It's supposed to be for the greater good and the future of democracy and all of that, but much like our current system of checks and balances, it'll just be yet another situation where those with the least power and privilege who will suffer the most from this line of decision-making.

"What is the quality of your intent?" - Thurgood Marshall


Quote by RowanThorn

Oh, you’re not ready for a conversation about Ukraine. Wanna talk about Bogdan Syrotiuk? America’s role in causing the war? The Obama administration’s role in escalating violence in the region? The Azov Assault Brigade? The denial of any new elections? The extreme corruption of the Ukrainian government? The banning of socialist web sites? The attack on anti-war protesters from the Ukrainian government? Zelenskyy dissolving parliament?

I don’t think you’re educated enough on the subject to hold that conversation.

Ukraine is far from perfect. But at this point (and if I remember correctly you did so earlier on as well) you're repeating a lot Russian propaganda.

Ukraine is a sovereign state. If it was the US that triggered Russia, then A) Russia should have attacked the US and B) the more reason for the US to help Ukraine.


===  Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER  ===

Quote by Dani

I'm just more concerned about the people being offered up as martyrs for this cause. It's supposed to be for the greater good and the future of democracy and all of that, but much like our current system of checks and balances, it'll just be yet another situation where those with the least power and privilege who will suffer the most from this line of decision-making.

It's kinda like the folks who claim that everything happens for a reason (often involving God), and then go on about what they learned from someone dear dying a horrible death. Only this is happening before the fact.


===  Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER  ===

Quote by Magical_felix

So how exactly does protest voting for a third party in America help Palestinians?

Firstly, the use of “protest voting” is indicative of your bias. Voting for whoever you want is a right of democracy. Either that’s sacrosanct or not, this isn’t a buffet where you can pick the parts you want and ignore the rest. While this is an extremely emotive topic, it’s alarming to me how quickly people want to silence dissenters. It’s giving authoritarian in disguise.

Secondly, I wasn’t advocating that a vote for a third party would assist - actually I only mentioned how ideological tensions are bad for pulling voters.

But since you asked, long term this would redistribute power to additional parties who would in turn be a closer representation of their constituents beliefs and would enact them. This would also remove the dichotomy of your voting pool and create a more moderate democracy based on multiple views rather than two opposing ones.

The failure of the left to create a truly compelling opposition is on them, not on people who notice it.

"A dirty book is rarely dusty"

Quote by Dani

So you're protest voting to punish the Democrats so they can learn a lesson with a Republican's victory?

What an incredibly privileged perspective. You want an exponential amount of people to continue suffering in unfathomable ways. Ways that you, yourself, won't suffer in the slightest (at the very least, not to the extent that those will far less privilege than you will suffer), all so a political party learns a lesson. And you genuinely believe you have the moral high ground here? And don't give me that shit about "I don't wanna go with a candidate that supports genocide" while salivating at the idea that your throwaway vote yields catastrophic results because you want other people's suffering to galvanize politicians.

It would be different (still stupid, but less disgusting) if you were choosing party over principle. But you know you're using your throwaway vote to siphon votes to the Republican party so that they win, because you'll feel vindicated when things go to shit. It's quite hypocritical of you to throw away your vote because you don't want a candidate that supports genocide (fair enough), but your intention is that there's even more suffering to teach the Democrats a lesson. How is that better?

Your "stance" is so empty. "I'm voting third party because I refuse to support a candidate who is funding a genocide, because I know the Republicans, who will also continue to fund a genocide and bring about even more suffering and the loss of rights in ways that ultimately won't impact me, will win, and teach the other party a lesson."

Ew.

I find the stance of accepting the status quo to be what’s truly privileged. That means you acknowledge the suffering and hardships of others but refuse to take action.

From a place of comfort you accept the exact system that has made things progressively worse for decades because you have the privilege to make due.

And I think the idea that we can change this country’s hyper violence and colonial grip on the world without subverting and dismantling the current system is lazy idealism. One that is die for many to accept, especially those without kids who won’t have to see them suffering in a world of climate chaos and genocidal state violence. I do feel the moral high ground in this case.

I’m voting 3rd party because I refuse to believe the steady march to climate destruction and colonial tyranny is not acceptable. That yielding to ‘the lesser of two evils’ is still the firm and unwavering support of those evils. All I hear from you is empty rhetoric with no real action. Not good enough for me.

Frankly if you don’t believe you’re on the moral high ground how are you living you’re life?

Imagine thinking the green party

Quote by PrincessC

Firstly, the use of “protest voting” is indicative of your bias. Voting for whoever you want is a right of democracy. Either that’s sacrosanct or not, this isn’t a buffet where you can pick the parts you want and ignore the rest. While this is an extremely emotive topic, it’s alarming to me how quickly people want to silence dissenters. It’s giving authoritarian in disguise.

Secondly, I wasn’t advocating that a vote for a third party would assist - actually I only mentioned how ideological tensions are bad for pulling voters.

But since you asked, long term this would redistribute power to additional parties who would in turn be a closer representation of their constituents beliefs and would enact them. This would also remove the dichotomy of your voting pool and create a more moderate democracy based on multiple views rather than two opposing ones.

The failure of the left to create a truly compelling opposition is on them, not on people who notice it.

So basically it wouldn’t help. It wouldn’t do anything besides signal to the democrats that they need to go more left to get the vote from far left progressives. So a protest. A protest vote.

Do you know how many members of the Green Party are in office now? Do you know what party progressives like AOC and Bernie Sanders are a part of? Voting in more and more AOCs is what’s effective… Not taking power from them.

I mean how long a timeline are we looking at? In order for a third party to do anything they have to win three branches of the government. That’s not going to happen. And if it does you have to believe that they wouldn’t be corrupt at all which if you look at the green party’s history, is not the case.

It’s easy to be idealist and pseudo-revolutionary online about voting for a third party when you’re not the one that would have to live through 4 years of a Trump presidency. An orange pig who has hinted at wanting to be a dictator, been caught mishandling my nations secrets, mishandling the pandemic, fanning the flames of racism, increasing the national dept more than anyone before him, embarrassing the United States every time he opens his mouth, been found to be a , gassed American citizens to clear the way for a photo-op, freed terrorist leaders, attempted a coup and on and on.

I’m sorry but this is like deciding to go on a diet while stranded in the desert with only junk food to survive. We need to find our way out of the desert (end the maga movement) then go on a diet (vote for more progressives). Vote in enough progressives to do to the Democratic Party what the MAGA movement did to the Republican Party.

This whole third party vote now to help Trump win and cement the idea that being MAGA stupid wins, is dangerous.

How long of a time line for it to ‘end the MAGA’ movement? There’s no plan, no alternative ideas offered. In fact the last four years of Democrats has strengthened it.

And it’s not the only the Republicans cranking the country further right. Biden is running the country like Reagan. The Democrats have opened up more oil drilling than Trump did and approved a massive drilling and pipeline project. They’ve taken away rights from immigrants and decided to adopt policies to fight asylum seekers that they themselves would have raised the alarm about a decade ago.

Meanwhile the Democrats often spend more money fighting progressives in primaries than they spend on the actual election against Republicans.

And the whole time scientists are screaming for immediate change. Health care systems are collapsing, farming is producing less and less, Democrats in Congress make millions off of weapon stocks and you say it will magically get better after decades of decline.

Chances and opportunities have been given in excess to the Dems, and they keep showing they just don’t care.

Quote by RowanThorn

I find the stance of accepting the status quo to be what’s truly privileged. That means you acknowledge the suffering and hardships of others but refuse to take action.

From a place of comfort you accept the exact system that has made things progressively worse for decades because you have the privilege to make due.

And I think the idea that we can change this country’s hyper violence and colonial grip on the world without subverting and dismantling the current system is lazy idealism. One that is die for many to accept, especially those without kids who won’t have to see them suffering in a world of climate chaos and genocidal state violence. I do feel the moral high ground in this case.

I’m voting 3rd party because I refuse to believe the steady march to climate destruction and colonial tyranny is not acceptable. That yielding to ‘the lesser of two evils’ is still the firm and unwavering support of those evils. All I hear from you is empty rhetoric with no real action. Not good enough for me.

Frankly if you don’t believe you’re on the moral high ground how are you living you’re life?

Yeah, this sounds really pretty, and I'm sure it feels nice convincing yourself that hoping for suffering that you, yourself will hardly experience (if at all) is the morally sound decision. But in reality, it makes you no different than those against whom you claim to rally. Sacrificing others and not yourself for a good cause is cool, I guess.

I assure you, there's no comfort in how I navigate the systems that impact me. Quite privileged of you to assume so, LOL. Being that I have vast experience in being trampled by systems in ways that you never will be, I understand all to well the push and pull of political games and the impact therein. I live this shit every day. Tell me of the most recent right(s) and privilege(s) taken from and/or denied to you and I'll tell you mine. I hate to play that card, but you toss around words like privilege as if you and I are the same in that regard. I quite literally can't have a privileged perspective, or it would mean my demise. Anything I've ever "accepted" about these systems have been entirely against my will. Therefore I'm fully aware of how dismantling these fucked systems is the only safe and productive way forward, so please spare me the lesson in that regard. You, in particular, will never have the range to teach me anything in that vein, and it's cringey to see you try.

With that being said, if the lesser of evil that we all know how to navigate is what we got, then that's what I choose. I don't claim to know the way forward because I'm still figuring this shit out myself, but I do know that blind faith in any political party or affiliation is how we end up in this same spot every 4 years. The part that seems to escape you is that your faith in the Green Party or whatever party you'll have the privilege of tossing your vote is also a part of that system. It is asinine to think any party born out of our current system, even the ones claiming to combat them, will be impactful enough to change it, especially when the goal is to claim the same level of power and status as the current parties. It's just supremacy in a different outfit. No system made in the image of our current system, regardless of how great their principles are, will ever resist reverting back to its previous dysfunction. Your failure to recognize that will always be counterintuitive to whatever moral standard you believe you embody.

As far as me having empty rhetoric and no action, you have no idea what actions I take towards dismantling systems, or at the very least supporting and empowering others with the resources at my disposal as they navigate the same fucked systems as myself. I'm just not inclined to share them on a fuck site. Even if this is the Think Tank, I have my limits. However, I assure you, my actions extend much further than meaningless arguments in a Think Tank on a sex site under the guise of an Elle Varner avatar. I come here to blow off steam, not to invoke change. I know where my voice and actions are the most productive and impactful, so that's where I use them.

You're voting third party because if it goes to shit in the ways that you're hoping, it will impact you the least. If that weren't the case, you wouldn't be. It's easy to make sacrifices when you're not the one that's actually gonna be sacrificed. I'd entertain your faulty sense of morality if it was your ass on the line in your decision-making process. But again, you know it's not. That's why your belief of yourself as having a moral high ground is tainted and empty at best. It's actually quite telling that you believe you have a moral high ground. No morally sound person would claim such a thing.

I appreciate you informing me that my approach isn't good enough for you. I use the disapproval of people like you as my moral compass. Lets me know I'm on the right track in this endless puddle of shit we're trying to escape.

"What is the quality of your intent?" - Thurgood Marshall