When Should the Federal Government use Race to Exclude Beneficiaries?

Quote by Ironic

Nice try. Start a thread about it.

Oh so now you don't want to debate.... See, fragile.

Quote by Ironic

The fact that other people disagree with the perpetuation of racist policies is very reasonable.

You'd have a point if the policies and programs like the one that is the subject of this thread were actively causing harm to or otherwise occurring and the expense of those they exclude to center the disenfranchised. Nobody is suffering because People of Color have a small opportunity to play catch up. If White people were unable to start successful businesses because of the MBDA, then you'd have a longshot at making a case for racism. But since that's not the case, reactions such as yours are rooted in fragility and not reason.

Quote by Ironic

You think I'm racist because you think I'm a chinless freak? When you don't know what I look like? Great style there! Brilliant!

Metaphorical... Having no chin means you're fragile.

Quote by Ironic

More brilliance!

Just explaining it to you... Your fragility is making metaphors go over your head.

Quote by Ironic

Can't or won't start the thread?

I've told you this before, but crying off-topic in an attempt to circumvent the present conversation is a waste of time. If the conversation steers off topic and requires another thread, myself or another moderator will make such a recommendation.

A relevant metaphor was made in relation to gender and race in relation to having programs and systems that uplift minorities. It was not off-topic. Feel free to disengage if you don't have a counterpoint, but otherwise I kindly ask that you refrain from blowing the off-topic whistle in the face of a metaphor. Please and thank you.

Quote by Ironic

It was off this thread's topic, and felix knew it when he tried changing the subject, even though you want to criticize me for pointing it out.

OK, what is your solution to reduce racism toward white people?

Quote by Ironic

Nice try again.

Good lord, fragile, Fine then...

How long has the policy been around? Who is the policy racist against?

Quote by Ironic

It was off this thread's topic, and felix knew it when he tried changing the subject, even though you want to criticize me for pointing it out.

How is saying having policies that give people of color a head start is similar to women being able to tee-off closer on a golf course because men are physically advantaged off topic?

Quote by Ironic

That is.

So asking for solutions to reduce racism towards White people in a thread that posits that programs that center the disenfranchised at the exclusion of White people are racist is off topic?

I've humored this nonsense quite enough. I'm done doing so. Either respond or disengage, but I'm done tolerating you slinging around things being "off-topic" because your lack of logic is challenged. Cut it out. Please and thank you.

This post does not require a response.

Quote by Tantaleyes

It's bad. Don't listen to anybody who tells you it isn't.

Why is it bad, explain.

Like, who is the policy racist against and how long has the policy been around?

Quote by Ironic

My criticism of the policies is that they are racially discriminatory. I think racial discrimination is bad. Chryses told you that it doesn't square with the equal protection clause, so maybe the policy can be challenged way.

Either morally or legally, I think we'll all be better off dismantling racial preferences and discrimination where we can.

OK you think racism against white people is bad. How would you go about fixing this major problem of America being racist against white people?

Quote by Tantaleyes

Racism is bad. End of story.

Shit, debate over.

Quote by Ironic

My criticism of the policies is that they are racially discriminatory. I think racial discrimination is bad. Chryses told you that it doesn't square with the equal protection clause, so maybe the policy can be challenged way.

Either morally or legally, I think we'll all be better off dismantling racial preferences and discrimination where we can.

I'm pretty sure that the equal protection clause doesn't apply here, mainly because it applies to state laws and not government agencies. Like marriage, child custody laws and the like.

What I'm hearing here is that all of the racism in the past can't be addressed because that would require us to provide services to people who were unjustly blocked from those services, and not those who blocked access in the first place.

The answer is to simply move ahead, trying to stamp out racism, and ignore what racism has already done. That's unacceptable and I believe that most of America, if not most of the people on Lush, would agree.

Quote by Ironic

What I've said is that racially discriminatory policies perpetuate the problem of racism, so it's better to have fewer of them.

But you haven't stated who the policy is racist against and how it has affected them. Seems like that would be an important point to make.

Quote by Ironic

Then go ahead and make a case for SBA's racially discriminatory policies to serve as a good model that you, me, and everybody else should copy.

Again, I don't think they are racist but you do.

I asked you who the policy is racist against and how it has affected them.

Seems like that would be an important point to make if you are going to state they are racist.

All you have done is call them racist then cower when asked why you are calling them racist.

Seems like the one incapable of debate is you.

So I cracked a joke about crayons and spoons, big deal, don't be so fragile.

Explain your stance on why exactly the policy is racist so debate can happen.

Quote by Magical_felix

ElCoco is the little spoon isn't he

If I see another mention of ElCoco and Ironic spooning (or anyone for that matter) or any variations thereof or a crayon being eaten or shoved up a nose or any variations thereof or overall any of your usual bits, I will gag you again, and for much longer than a few minutes. Do yourself a favor and quit undermining the sanctity of your own arguments with this behavior, and knock it the fuck off. Please and thank you.

Quote by Ironic

That's what we disagree about. Since I think those policies are racially discriminatory and you don't, there's not much for us to discuss.

You do that to avoid debating the issues.

The SBA's policies use race as a filter for providing its service. That's racial discrimination, and I'm opposed to it.

But HOW has it affected the races being "discriminated" against?

Quote by Ironic

How did racial discrimination affect the races being "discriminated" against in the past?

Wait... White people have become slaves now, freed, then denied the same access to literally everything for centuries?

wut

Quote by Ironic

How did racial discrimination affect the races being "discriminated" against in the past?

It's pretty disingenuous to equate excluding White people from programs and policies that boost opportunities for the racially marginalized to the systemic racism that made such programs and policies necessary in the first place.

In the context of the MBDA program, an equivalent to systemic racism against White people would be that if in addition to excluding White people from benefitting from the program, White people were also barred from starting/maintaining businesses. Addressing systemic deficits means bolstering only those who suffer from systemic deficits, otherwise everyone just stays where they are.

It's like if a teacher packs extra sandwiches for students whose parents are too poor or neglectful or whatever the case may be to pay for or pack a lunch because it's not the students' faults their parents are poor, neglectful, whatever, but saying it's discriminatory or otherwise punishing students whose parents provide lunch if they don't get one of the teacher's extra sandwiches as well.

Hey man, you got stabbed by a crackhead? That sucks. We'd love to keep you from dying, but treating your wound would be discrimination against everyone else who didn't get stabbed. It's our policy to treat everyone fairly and equally here. Just sit over there in the corner and try not to bleed out, or anything. Oh, and keep it down, so you don't disturb the others.

Quote by Ironic

I'll let the constitutional wonks argue that point, but I can see how racially discriminatory policies would fail equal protection, so the federal government would be included if those policies do fail that test.

What you're hearing from me is that fighting racism with racist policies is a bad idea.

How we approach the problem of racism is up to each of us, but I don't think the SBA's racially discriminatory policies serve as a good model.

Since I've read many posts defending the SBA's racially discriminatory policies, there are obviously people here and throughout America who approve of them.

Read the equal protection clause: "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

It applies to state laws. You don't need a degree in Constitutional law to understand that "No state shall...." means it applies to the state. "Make or enforce any law...." means it applies specifically to laws. JFC.

Also, we're not talking about individual racism. No law is going to make a flaming racist change his or her attitude. However, we might be able to make sure that racist person who just so happens to make business loans, doesn't hold all of the power over black-run businesses. This particular version of racism isn't "up to each of us". It's up to policy makers.

Quote by Ironic

I think you're wrong about the Constitution's applicability. I'm sure it applies to federal as well as state laws.

The SBA's racially discriminatory policies are applied to individuals. They're the ones who it affects.

Is the SBA a law? No.

When I think of policies that are inherently racist coming out of America it's clear to me that they are only an issue when they disenfranchise white people.

Take visiting Visas for example, America strictly controls it's borders but takes umbrage when they themselves require the same when travelling. One could say this is a racial control for access because America is what, over 75% white? If Americans against economic empowerment for MINORITIES were so against racial ideology, they would actively seek to remove all of it from their law and process.

Pretending that this is racist and is even a debate allows us to skirt on the boundaries of being white supremacists under the guise of "debate" . That's not healthy conversation it's propaganda, which is being spewed across many of the forum posts on this site which alienates at best and at worst tells people it's their fault for being poor when we just know that isn't the case based on the prison pipeline, crime rates against minorities and the KKK still carrying on with their activities for the world to see.

Any time people challenge the status quo of white majority capital it's going to feel uncomfortable because it's challenging the foundation of a country built on slaves and genocide of the people already there. Foundation shook = instability.

Quote by ElCoco

Is this your way of saying a debate about race shouldn't be allowed?

If I say no will you let me escape the free speech debate. I’m not American, our freedom of speech doesn’t include racial discrimination.

Quote by PrincessC

If I say no will you let me escape the free speech debate. I’m not American, our freedom of speech doesn’t include racial discrimination.

You're in South Africa? Do you have hate speech laws, where saying something hateful is a crime by itself, without anything additional (assault, robbery, etc.)? I could look it up, but since I have you right here.....

Quote by AngelEthics

You're in South Africa? Do you have hate speech laws, where saying something hateful is a crime by itself, without anything additional (assault, robbery, etc.)? I could look it up, but since I have you right here.....

Yes we do. A racial slur is deemed as hate speech which is a one way trip to a massive fine or jail depending on the severity.

Quote by ElCoco

Is this your way of saying a debate about race is OK?

What do you classify as debate?

Quote by ElCoco

This thread is an example.

But arguing a point based not on evidence or popular thought but on a certain bias (like hey, white supremacy), would that be debate?

I'd say no. I'd say that's propaganda.

Quote by ElCoco

I've read in this thread people saying why the SBA's racially discriminating policies should be kept, and I've read others saying why they shouldn't.

That seems like a debate to me.

We are arguing content, keep up.

Would for example you using racially charged language / slurs at me while I calmy explain critical race theory constitute a debate to you?