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Question regarding the compound sentence

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SereneProdigy
Cryptic Vigilante
Quote by DanielleX
In the context of a leather sofa, leather is a noun. A leather sofa is itself a thing, 'leather' doesn't qualify sofa it merely says what it is. I can't say leather can never be an adjective but leathery is the normal form.


I believe that in this case, you have a word that's commonly a noun which is being employed as an adjective. Words can change their initial nature in many instances:


"I always strive for the good."

Here you have an adjective that's being used as a noun.


"I swear, I once encountered a talking cat!"

Here you have a verb that's being used as an adjective.
Guest
Lurker
Quote by SereneProdigy


There girl, I'm going to reply to one of your posts.

Yes, it totally looks like a D7 in the first picture... not a Dm7 though. Look at these chords:





First, if you move the F# to a F on the first string, it changes the chord from a D to a Dm. Then, if you move the D to a C on the second string, it changes the chord from a D to a D7. If you combine both, you change the chord from a D to a Dm7.

The Dm7 chord is quite rare; I don't remember ever playing it in a song. The D, Dm and D7 chords are much more common.

And I'm not quite sure that Clapton is using his thumb to mute the two upper strings; personally I have absolutely no problem hitting just the first 4 strings, I don't need to mute any string.

And I can also hit only the 4 central strings fairly easily in Dominant 7th chords (bluesy chords), which you can move all around the neck:





If you Google pictures of Clapton, he almost always has his thumb over the neck of his guitar; it doesn't really serve any specific function, it's simply more comfortable/effective for him.


Yes, thank you, I see what you mean.

But I'm not totally convinced that his 3rd finger is actually on the fret board. It looks to me as though it could be just below.

In which case he would be playing the Dm7 as your chord diagram shows.

But, no, I will admit, if he is fretting the top E with 3rd finger on the second fret, it would be the D7 chord.

Check out a song of his called Old Love. It's in the key of Am7, and the Dm7 chord is played frequently throughout the song.
DanielleX
Head Penguin
Quote by Frank_Lee


I have always used the OED as well. Anyone who loves language owes it to themselves to drink straight from the fountain, as it were. And I couldn't agree more that Google is not the best way to confirm style/mechanics questions. The information is often in conflict, and sometimes just totally out of left field.

I just go by the books and style guides I use for teaching this material and also when I'm editing for ebook publishers. If you look at your two versions of the sentence - brown vs leather sofa - the grammatical function of brown and leather is the same. The only possible function either word is performing is to modify sofa. And yes, Hereford would be an adjective in that context.

The OED is amazing, and will give you the entire etymology of a given word, but it's still a dictionary and not a grammar guide.


I'm going to need to do some extra research on this. I can't say I ever came across this example before.

See, I don't see brown and leather as the same thing, grammatically. Brown is simply describing the sofa in terms of its colour. Like Hereford I don't see leather as a description but an intrinsic part of the sofa. I guess we could go round in circles but I'll defer to your wisdom smile

Danny x

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dpw
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by DanielleX
I know you can go and find places on the internet where it says leather is an adjective, but I'm not convinced. Here's why:

According to the dictionaries I used for Uni, which is the great big Oxford dictionary in two volumes that weigh about 5kg each, leather can either be a substantive (which is a posh word for a noun) or a verb.

Nowhere does it say it's an adjective.

The way I see it, in the case of leather sofa or leather handbag leather is part of the essence of the thing. I get where people are coming from, so you start off with sofa, which is definitely a noun, so you're assuming that when you stick leather in the front it must be an adjective.

Imagine instead of a sofa it's a cow. What sort of cow? An Hereford cow. Hereford isn't an adjective is it. Leather is performing the same function grammatically as Hereford. A leather sofa is a sofa made of leather, a Hereford cow is a cow from Hereford.


My brain hurts! I've been transported back fifty years. Mr Tudor Jones is lookieg disparagingly at me in English. Half the terms used now didn't exist back then. Have pity.
Noun adjunct? What?
A noun that acts as an adjective? Treated the same as an adjective?
I thought my grammar was good, for a Scouser! My stories didn't get returned. Now I'm not so sure.
Frank_Lee
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by DanielleX


I'm going to need to do some extra research on this. I can't say I ever came across this example before.

See, I don't see brown and leather as the same thing, grammatically. Brown is simply describing the sofa in terms of its colour. Like Hereford I don't see leather as a description but an intrinsic part of the sofa. I guess we could go round in circles but I'll defer to your wisdom smile

Danny x


Now I feel bad. The thing that's too easy to forget in conversations like this is that being able to parse a sentence isn't even in the same league as making the language sing or reveal pictures or feelings that speak to a stranger. This is the kind of stuff that intimidates most people about writing.
Katherine
Nerdzilla
Quote by Frank_Lee

This is the kind of stuff that intimidates most people about writing.


This, exactly. It's fun to debate it sometimes, but I usually can't commit to long detailed conversations about it. For me, it takes fun out of writing (not knocking anyone for whom it doesn't, just saying).

For the record though, this thread has been interesting to watch. It feels like more of a conversation than most grammar discussions end up being. smile

Edit: I hope I didn't just read that completely different than you intended. But yeah, I get intimidated by it fucking all so I'd agree anyway.
dpw
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by Frank_Lee


Now I feel bad. The thing that's too easy to forget in conversations like this is that being able to parse a sentence isn't even in the same league as making the language sing or reveal pictures or feelings that speak to a stranger. This is the kind of stuff that intimidates most people about writing.

I hate writing anyway. It reminds me of homework.
Frank_Lee
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by dpw

I hate writing anyway. It reminds me of homework.


Me, too! Writing sucks!
DanielleX
Head Penguin
Quote by Frank_Lee


Now I feel bad. The thing that's too easy to forget in conversations like this is that being able to parse a sentence isn't even in the same league as making the language sing or reveal pictures or feelings that speak to a stranger. This is the kind of stuff that intimidates most people about writing.


No need to feel bad. I love it! I just need to understand it for myself.

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A steamy lesbian three way
ChrissieLecker
Story Verifier
Quote by Frank_Lee
I have always used the OED as well. Anyone who loves language owes it to themselves to drink straight from the fountain, as it were. And I couldn't agree more that Google is not the best way to confirm style/mechanics questions. The information is often in conflict, and sometimes just totally out of left field.

I just go by the books and style guides I use for teaching this material and also when I'm editing for ebook publishers. If you look at your two versions of the sentence - brown vs leather sofa - the grammatical function of brown and leather is the same. The only possible function either word is performing is to modify sofa. And yes, Hereford would be an adjective in that context.

The OED is amazing, and will give you the entire etymology of a given word, but it's still a dictionary and not a grammar guide.


I don't want anybody to be intimidated by this thread. To me, it's really interesting to be able to dig into such details, even with the risk that things I thought I knew may be wrong. Call it a crazy part of me that needs to understand things to their very core.

It seems that the topic of whether leather is an adjective is one that divides the world ;) I found this grammar help on noun modifiers which also includes "leather":
https://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/en/english-grammar/adjectives/noun-modifiers

Websters curiously lists "leather" and "iron" as adjectives, but not "metal". It seems I'll need to do some heavy digging into that topic to be really sure about it one way or the other.

dpw: it's no different with German. Half the terms they used when I was in school aren't common anymore; instead, I constantly discover new ones. While that may be a little disconcerting from time to time, I also find that it tends to tidy up with all the "exception lists" that used to make up big parts of my books. Language science used to be a somewhat wooly thing celebrated behind closed doors by a caste of illuminated professors who used to declare things they didn't like as simply non-existent, and that only started to change with computers and the internet towards the turn of the millenium.

Nowadays, they can't simply ignore parts of indogermanic, gaelic or roman roots, and the overlaps between languages and ethymology of their functional parts has apparently made it necessary to create new terms that are valid for almost any language. So, while the English language itself hasn't really changed much, the view on it has. Different terms are used to describe word classes, lexical parts and semantic elements, and only a select part of the population (speak: students of the language) are really able to navigate between old and new view.

For me, discussions like this are a huge learning experience. My school English only started with 5th grade and I had rather poor teachers for a few years. Almost everything that goes beyond pure vocabulary, simple relative clauses and tenses is self taught through reading, movies and the internet. So while I may instinctually do most things right, knowing why I do them and learning to explain that to others is never boring for me.

tiddlywink: thank you for starting this thread, even if it's going off on a tangent. The text you quoted on your profile is most definitely from a poem - which means it is in fact both. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubaiyat_of_Omar_Khayyam
Guest
Lurker
Quote by DanielleX
I know you can go and find places on the internet where it says leather is an adjective, but I'm not convinced. Here's why:

According to the dictionaries I used for Uni, which is the great big Oxford dictionary in two volumes that weigh about 5kg each, leather can either be a substantive (which is a posh word for a noun) or a verb.

Nowhere does it say it's an adjective.

The way I see it, in the case of leather sofa or leather handbag leather is part of the essence of the thing. I get where people are coming from, so you start off with sofa, which is definitely a noun, so you're assuming that when you stick leather in the front it must be an adjective.

Imagine instead of a sofa it's a cow. What sort of cow? An Hereford cow. Hereford isn't an adjective is it. Leather is performing the same function grammatically as Hereford. A leather sofa is a sofa made of leather, a Hereford cow is a cow from Hereford.



Danny, what is all this kerfuffle over a leather couch?

You're quite right in your assumption that leather is not an adjective. It is a noun.

However, nouns can function adjectivally and modify other nouns.

This is called a noun adjunct.

Let me show you some examples:

Leather couch
Ice cream
Fish fingers
Tomato soup
Rubber tree

All these examples have nouns preceded by another noun that is functioning adjectivally.
DanielleX
Head Penguin
It's not a kerfuffle Tiggles, it's an interesting debate about the fine points of English. You're right in what you say though. They are nouns acting as adjectives.

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Guest
Lurker
Quote by DanielleX
It's not a kerfuffle Tiggles, it's an interesting debate about the fine points of English. You're right in what you say though. They are nouns acting as adjectives.


Yay! Yay! Yay!

Danny replied to one of my posts!

Thank you so much, Danny, you've really made my day.

You've made me feel like part of the "gang".

And you're right, this is a ruddy fascinating discussion regarding the finer points of English.

I like the name "Tiggles". It sounds cute and friendly.

Now let's take a look at some more examples of the noun premodifier, also known as a noun adjunct:

Toy store
Sex doll
Love eggs
Cock ring
Nipple clamp


These are all examples of nouns modifying other nouns.

Come on, guys, you're all invited to join in on this discussion.
DanielleX
Head Penguin
Quote by tiddlywink


Yay! Yay! Yay!

Danny replied to one of my posts!

Thank you so much, Danny, you've really made my day.

You've made me feel like part of the "gang".

And you're right, this is a ruddy fascinating discussion regarding the finer points of English.

I like the name "Tiggles". It sounds cute and friendly.

Now let's take a look at some more examples of the noun premodifier, also known as a noun adjunct:

Toy store
Sex doll
Love eggs
Cock ring


These are all examples of nouns modifying other nouns.

Come on, guys, you're all invited to join in on this discussion.


You're welcome Tiggles! Do bear in mind though that not everyone shares our love of esoteric English grammar etc

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Verbal
Gravelly-Voiced Fucker
Incidentally, the leather sofa set is no longer in the story. I did quite a bit of cutting, and tried to break apart (nearly) all the longer sentences. I tried very hard to be a good boy.

I too am a little intimidated by phrases like "noun adjunct," and all the rules involving the finer points of grammar, which may be why my style occasionally veers out of control. I like what Joan Didion said: "Grammar is a piano I play by ear. All I know about grammar is its power."
Guest
Lurker
Quote by ChrissieLecker
tiddlywink: thank you for starting this thread, even if it's going off on a tangent. The text you quoted on your profile is most definitely from a poem - which means it is in fact both. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubaiyat_of_Omar_Khayyam


Thank you, Chrissie, for your reply and contribution to this thread.

You are an intelligent lady and a great asset to the site.

I also like to analyse things to death, break things down to their core, so I understand your compulsion. My OCD drives me to distraction sometimes.

I am a complex person with many different layers to my personality.

Thank you everybody who has contributed to this thread.

My ickle tootsies are freezing cold; this site has knocked my socks off.
DanielleX
Head Penguin
Quote by ChrissieLecker



It seems that the topic of whether leather is an adjective is one that divides the world ;) I found this grammar help on noun modifiers which also includes "leather":


That looks like a very official website. I rest my case

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Guest
Lurker
Quote by tiddlywink
a "comma splice"? One of the most commonly made mistakes in English grammar.


There should be more threads like this. There's nothing here that I don't already know, but it was good to read.

I agree: the comma splice is one of the most frequent mistakes made in English lit. However, I believe that the misuse of reflexive and emphatic pronouns is more prevalent. What determines whether these pronouns are being used as reflexive or emphatic is esoteric, so I'll keep it simple for now.


The pronouns I'm referring to are as follows:

Singular: myself, yourself, himself, itself, oneself.

Plural: themselves, ourselves, yourselves.


What most people don't realise is, these pronouns must refer back to the subject of the clause. They add emphasis to the subject and therefore must match the noun that they are referring back to.

I'll give some examples and underline the reflexive/emphatic pronouns and use bold to highlight the subject to which they refer back.

One has to ask oneself a question.

A rule by which we ourselves must abide.

Are you enjoying yourself?

She feels much better in herself.

A crime of which they themselves had become victims.

We live by ourselves.

I myself find it hard to believe.

They're old enough to do it themselves.

Notice how in all these examples the reflexive/emphatic pronouns refer back to and match the subject of the clause.

I'll now show some examples of misused reflexive/emphatic pronouns.

I wish I knew more people like yourself.

The issues between Paul and myself have been resolved.

The board and ourselves have come to a decision.

Please contact myself if you have any further questions.

Now notice how in these examples the two words are completely different things. If anyone has anything to add, I myself would like to hear your opinion.
Guest
Lurker
Sorry, I missed a bit out of my last post. The incorrect sentences should be as follows:

I wish I knew more people like you.

The issues between Paul and I have been resolved.

We and the board have come to a decision.

Please contact me if you have any further questions.