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patokl
Over 90 days ago
Straight Cis Male
0 miles · Germany
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Quote by amy1967Even people who aren't moderators have the right to have and express their thoughts about how people discuss matters. And while they don't have the authority to make demands, like moderators do, they do have the right to make a request. And that was all Noll did.
Get your moderator status if you want to moderate the forums. Until then don't act holier than thou. It's not your job.
Hi Laura
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Quote by Jack_42You specifically mentioned the USA as one of the nations that lost the war:
Could this be ironic unconscious arrogance I said Allies not America.And by the way this was the Soviet plan from the day they made the agreement with Hitler try studying a few of their diaries. Also the sacrifice of Easter Europe was made by Churchill and Roosevelt long before Yalta.
"As for the Pacific war that was the only part of WWII which the U.S.A. and the other allies won as they most definitely lost the one in Europe. ".
They did not lose. They, together with their allies, defeated the Axis powers and by doing that, ended WWII.
I'm not defending Roosevelt and Churchill, but I'm pretty sure they and Stalin didn't exchange diaries among each other. They probably kept their hidden agendas to themselves. Whatever they agreed upon, they all, Stalin too, pledged to restore sovereignty to the countries they liberated from the Germans and their allies, and to let them democratically choose their own government. That pledge was an important part of the deal, and Stalin broke it. He betrayed his allies and the peoples of the countries he "liberated". He and Russia gained from that, and the countries involved suffered greatly. That however still does not mean the USA and the other allies lost WWII, they didn't.
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Quote by nollI agree with all of this. What I disagreed with, was Jack's statement that America lost the second world war in Europe and that Russia was the only winner there.
True, but part of the reason is that the West very quickly saw the East as nasty 'commies', even though many in the East helped to liberate the West for which they were now punished by the Soviets (for fighting with the enemy). As a Dutch person I think it's disgraceful how for instance Poland was betrayed by us. Polish soldiers helped liberate large parts of Europe only to never be able to return to their own country after the war. They were seen there as betrayers for fighting with the West and in the West they were often seen as from the Warsaw Pact after the war. It took about 5 decades before their war efforts were recognized. An absolute disgrace.
Strictly speaking Jack may not be right, but I completely understand what he means. The Europe that had won was far smaller than the Europe before WWII. It's only after the SU collapsed that Europe seems to have regained it's original size again. Not geological of course, but what it is that people refer to when they mention Europe.
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Quote by Jack_42Let's agree to disagree on who won WWII. If taking over part of Europe can be seen as a victory, then liberating the rest of Europe was one too, that after all was the agreed on purpose of the allied effort.
Of course it would be a different story they still had their freedom - rather obvious. This is not a case of being wise after the event only a few weeks after the Yalta conference and during the same there was dissatisfaction about the arrogant carving up of Europe thus allowed. I never said it was odd that nobody had the stomach to stand up to Stalin but you concede my point by acknowledging that. Russia's nuclear capability at the time was very minimal - practically non existent and this was prior to Hiroshima etc. I am not really debating the events but what it meant in real terms. Russia won the war. To be fair they had suffered the most from the war but that does not excuse their being allowed to take over a huge part of Europe just because their troops were there - without it being looked upon as their victory unspoken or not but a victory nevertheless.
And all this may I once more remind all is a digression from the misinterpretation of my statement about Donald Trump. The response being emotion driven without any reference to what my statement actually said and it's all becoming a bit tiresome.
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Quote by Jack_42Ask that same question in the other half of Germany, in the Netherlands, Belgium, France or any other country that didn't fall under the Soviet Unions influence, and you'll get a completely different answer.
Ask any person from Hungary, half of Germany etc who in real terms won WWII ? The allies chickened out and allowed the cold war to be created. For for most of my life we had to suffer the expense, con and privation of the cold war. People who had fought for ''freedom'' who returned to their countries were imprisoned for ''fighting on the wrong side.'' The reason for it starting was Germany's invasion of Poland at the end Poland was still invaded - so much for freedom. OK everyone had no stomach to continue or stand up to Stalin but that is the reality.
Initial reaction to the Yalta agreements was celebratory. Roosevelt and many other Americans viewed it as proof that the spirit of U.S.-Soviet wartime cooperation would carry over into the postwar period. This sentiment, however, was short lived. With the death of Franklin D. Roosevelt on April 12, 1945, Harry S. Truman became the thirty-third president of the United States. By the end of April, the new administration clashed with the Soviets over their influence in Eastern Europe, and over the United Nations. Alarmed at the perceived lack of cooperation on the part of the Soviets, many Americans began to criticize Roosevelt’s handling of the Yalta negotiations. To this day, many of Roosevelt’s most vehement detractors accuse him of “handing over” Eastern Europe and Northeast Asia to the Soviet Union at Yalta despite the fact that the Soviets did make many substantial concessions.
Looking back, it's always easy to see the mistakes that were made. Yalta rendered some decisions that helped Stalin's aspirations after the war. Some of that might have been foreseen, but certainly not all of it. And no matter how you look at it, compromises had to be made to seal the alliance between Russia and the rest of the allies. They needed each other to stop the Axis Powers from taking over the world.
Stalin effectively occupied a number of countries, broke the pledge about free elections he made in Yalta and abused his influence on the countries he occupied. But that did not decide the outcome of WWII. That war was over after the allied forces defeated Germany, Italy and Japan.
That nobody had the stomach to stand up against Stalin is not so odd. Europe and its allies, including America had just paid a high price to end a war and weren't about to start a new one, one that might even escalate into a nuclear conflict. And although the influence of the Soviet Union on the political processes was pretty clear, the western world still considered it the internal affairs of the countries involved and interfering with them was not done.