Quote by Chryses
Were you to refuse service to anyone wearing a cross, I would expect you to be successfully prosecuted for discrimination, as not wanting "them doing anything funny" with your wine seems to me to be an inadequate basis for you refusing to serve members of the public,
I think it wise to review that sales strategy with a local lawyer.
edited
Okay so I can only discriminate if they want a custom label on the wine that seems to be gay?
Quote by Chryses
I'm not a subject matter expert on this topic. See a professional.
Oh you're cornered with logic again.
Because you said that a cake maker can discriminate if someone comes in wanting a custom gay cake but not if the customer just wants one of the cakes that's in the display case.
Quote by Magical_felix
Oh you're cornered with logic again.
Because you said that a cake maker can discriminate if someone comes in wanting a custom gay cake but not if the customer just wants one of the cakes that's in the display case.
I can see Chryses' PoV. If you rearrange the situation, let's say you're a Jewish baker, and a customer comes in and wants a cake decorated with swastikas. It makes sense that you would refuse to bake a custom cake with swastikas. None of the cakes you've baked already that are on display have swastikas on them. It's the swastika that's objectionable, not the sale. Creativity is also freedom of speech. In this situation, to force the baker to bake a swastika cake, you limit their freedom of speech by forcing them to adopt speech that they are morally opposed to.
Don't believe everything that you read.
Quote by Just_A_Guy_You_Know
I can see Chryses' PoV. If you rearrange the situation, let's say you're a Jewish baker, and a customer comes in and wants a cake decorated with swastikas. It makes sense that you would refuse to bake a custom cake with swastikas. None of the cakes you've baked already that are on display have swastikas on them. It's the swastika that's objectionable, not the sale. Creativity is also freedom of speech. In this situation, to force the baker to bake a swastika cake, you limit their freedom of speech by forcing them to adopt speech that they are morally opposed to.
The point that's being made is that free speech is used to sanction discrimination. When we're absolute about free speech and the discrimination therein, we get a catalyst for hate crimes.
"What is the quality of your intent?" - Thurgood Marshall
Quote by Just_A_Guy_You_Know
I can see Chryses' PoV. If you rearrange the situation, let's say you're a Jewish baker, and a customer comes in and wants a cake decorated with swastikas. It makes sense that you would refuse to bake a custom cake with swastikas. None of the cakes you've baked already that are on display have swastikas on them. It's the swastika that's objectionable, not the sale. Creativity is also freedom of speech. In this situation, to force the baker to bake a swastika cake, you limit their freedom of speech by forcing them to adopt speech that they are morally opposed to.
Except people wanting nazi cakes is not a thing. Gay people getting married and wanting a cake is. It's not like the cake has two guys sword fighting or anything obscene on it. It's just a cake for gay people. There is a big difference between discriminating against Nazis or a baker not wanting to make like a dead baby cake or something crazy and just a cake for a gay couple. The right for a business to not make something obscene or copyrighted has always existed. This is literally about not making a cake because of who the customer is and not what is on the cake. That's discrimination, not free speech.
You know damn well that if businesses would stop providing services to christians like they do to gay people that all of a sudden the laws would change and it would not be a free speech issue for the businesses. It would all of a sudden be a free speech issue on the side of the christians who are being discriminated against.
Quote by Dani
The point that's being made is that free speech is used to sanction discrimination. When we're absolute about free speech and the discrimination therein, we get a catalyst for hate crimes.
Paradox of tolerance and all that.
The distinction I see is between making a cake according to someone's preferences vs. selling them a cake that's already been made by you. If I own a bakery, I don't care what your politics are, I'll sell you a 'happy birthday' cake. What you do with it afterwards is your own business. But I won't custom-bake you a 'happy birthday dead baby Hitler cake' because you don't like the cakes I've already got or the designs I'm willing to provide. As the old saying goes, "Sorry, Mario, but our princess is in another castle." You want that particular cake, go somewhere where you can get it (or learn to make it yourself then fill the gap you've identified in the cake-baking world and get rich), but you can't expect that a place run by bigots, homophobes, and assholes is going to have what you need or be interested in providing it for you.
Don't believe everything that you read.
Quote by Just_A_Guy_You_Know
The distinction I see is between making a cake according to someone's preferences vs. selling them a cake that's already been made by you. If I own a bakery, I don't care what your politics are, I'll sell you a 'happy birthday' cake. What you do with it afterwards is your own business. But I won't custom-bake you a 'happy birthday dead baby Hitler cake' because you don't like the cakes I've already got or the designs I'm willing to provide. As the old saying goes, "Sorry, Mario, but our princess is in another castle." You want that particular cake, go somewhere where you can get it (or learn to make it yourself then fill the gap you've identified in the cake-baking world and get rich), but you can't expect that a place run by bigots, homophobes, and assholes is going to have what you need or be interested in providing it for you.
Yeah but still, it's about who the customer is, not what's on the cake. That just seems to be more discrimination than anything else.
And how are people able to tell which cake maker is a bigot?
I mean the most shocking thing to me is that someone who chose cake making to be their livelihood is prejudiced against gay people. I mean come on.
Quote by Magical_felix
Yeah but still, it's about who the customer is, not what's on the cake. That just seems to be more discrimination than anything else.
And how are people able to tell which cake maker is a bigot?
I mean the most shocking thing to me is that someone who chose cake making to be their livelihood is prejudiced against gay people. I mean come on.
This is the exact reverse of the Irish gay cake case, where the Supreme Court ruled that it was the message of gay marriage that the baker objected to. They openly had no problem in selling a cake to a gay couple.
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Quote by DanielleX
This is the exact reverse of the Irish gay cake case, where the Supreme Court ruled that it was the message of gay marriage that the baker objected to. They openly had no problem in selling a cake to a gay couple.
But that is pretty much discriminating without calling it discrimination. Legal discrimination directed to only one group.
It's like saying, look, here on lush we object to men typing up stories or posting in the forum or even typing in chat rooms. It's not men that are problem, they're cool, just what they type that isn't so cool. So the outcome would be no men are allowed to participate on lush but lush saying, well we aren't discriminating against men, just men typing.
Like what, are the gay couple going to buy a straight cake for their gay wedding? I mean this is just a technicality, this whole notion that it's not about the customers, it's only about the customers wanting a gay cake. Plus what makes it a gay cake? Too many flowers? Two groom dolls? Like could they buy a regular cake and buy two groom toppers off the shelf? Or would that make the baker a participant in the gay wedding now?
Give me a break.
Do you think they would rule the other way around in Ireland? Like say people not providing services to catholics, not because of catholics themselves... but just about what they believe.
Quote by Magical_felix.
Give me a break.
Do you think they would rule the other way around in Ireland? Like say people not providing services to catholics, not because of catholics themselves... but just about what they believe.
The message was a picture of a couple of cartoon characters with a message that supported gay marriage. The bakers who are devout Christians said it was that message they objected to. I do see a distinction between objecting against a message and not the person. I imagine a case involving a Catholic v a Catholic message would receive a different ruling.
A steamy lesbian three way
I own a cake making business, Moldy Cakes. Not the name I wanted, but I'm under court order to do so, because of some kind of crazy "Truth in Advertising" law in my state. Hey, it was either that or Rat Cakes. I chose the lesser of two evils.
Not surprisingly, sales are down. To increase business, I've decided to start making customized wedding cakes. I'll make cakes for anyone. Straight couples, same sex couples, interracial couples, young couples, old couples, moldy couples, rat couples. I don't care.
MY question is: Can I discriminate from hiring religious people? I mean, if a same sex couple wanted a customized cake, I can't take a chance that my employee might refuse to do so based on a religious belief. That would mean I would have to do it. I'm the boss, I shouldn't have to work! And besides, I don't know how to make a cake.
I can't take a chance on an employee like this. I need all the customers I can get.
If you owned a printing business. would you print pamphlets for Nazis or The Ku Klux Klan? Should it be your right to turn their business down.
Quote by Buz
If you owned a printing business. would you print pamphlets for Nazis or The Ku Klux Klan? Should it be your right to turn their business down.
Explain how being gay is the same as a hate group who incites violence.
When was the last time gays committed genocide of millions of people?
Quote by Magical_felix
No, you weirdo.
If you named your wine Devil's Blood, chances of Christians pretending it is blood will be greatly reduced.
=== Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER ===
Quote by Magical_felix
Yeah well that's just silly. What people believe is who they are.
All the things I've believed in my life... I've got to be some kind of shapeshifter.
Quote by Walt Whitman
"Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself. I am large. I contain multitudes."
Don't believe everything that you read.
Quote by ElCoco
It's about what the baker is being forced to do. The customer might not be gay. It's about the baker being free to say, "No, that's not something I want to do."
"No, that's not something I want to do. Because my free speech allows me to discriminate, I'm going to deny you service."
"What is the quality of your intent?" - Thurgood Marshall
ElCocko and Ironic have found this thread... just going to be filibustered now.
Quote by Magical_felix
ElCocko and Ironic have found this thread... just going to be filibustered now.
Let's give them, and everyone else for that matter, a chance to participate and see where it goes.
Don't be such a pessimist.
"What is the quality of your intent?" - Thurgood Marshall
Quote by ElCoco
And he'd be prosecuted for murder, just like he would have always been.
which doesn't bring the deceased back to life. see? that's the thing. you stir people up to the point of them committing violence against others and then they do and it's done. nothing that happens afterward makes up for the fact that someone is dead because of those actions.
You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.
Quote by ElCoco
It's about what the baker is being forced to do. The customer might not be gay. It's about the baker being free to say, "No, that's not something I want to do."
omg! i'm a baker and i'm being forced to bake a cake! i will never ever get over this! funny that gay bakers never refuse to make cakes celebrating straight weddings. i mean, can you imagine the outrage if that started happening?
You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.
Quote by ElCoco
I think you're not looking at what the issue was. The issue wasn't about being forced to bake a cake. The issue was whether the law forced her to express an opinion she disagreed with. Right or wrong, she thinks marriage is something that happens between a male and a female, and the law said she had to create something celebrating a marriage between a male and another male.
she's not expressing an opinion. she's merely baking a cake. that doesn't mean she approves or disapproves. she can continue to disapprove (and continue being a bigot) after they pick up their cake
You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.
Quote by ElCoco
Who's the "you" who stirred people up?
"you" is often, as in this case, used to refer to any person in general.
You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.
Quote by Magical_felix
Explain how being gay is the same as a hate group who incites violence.
When was the last time gays committed genocide of millions of people?
It isn't the same, but exactly what are the rights of the business owner and of the customer?
Religious rights, political view rights, sexual orientation rights, etc. get into some very gray areas. State courts vary on their stances on these issues. Even federal courts disagree, and SCOTUS has become inconsistent.
There is no answer that will make everyone happy. Someone - some group will feel slighted and discriminated against, and politically and vocally active for their side.
It will always be in flux. And always divisive.
Quote by Buz
There is no answer that will make everyone happy. Someone - some group will feel slighted and discriminated against, and politically and vocally active for their side.
It will always be in flux. And always divisive.
Happiness has nothing to do with legally disallowing discrimination against minorities.
"What is the quality of your intent?" - Thurgood Marshall
Quote by Ironic
Your example shows that the free speech right is "bigger or "larger" than the anti-discrimination laws. The free speech right applies to everybody in the society, but the anti-discrimination laws only apply to parts or groups of the society.
Those anti-discrimination laws apply primarily to those being discriminated upon and those doing the discriminating. The latter has greater incentive to hide this activity from interested agencies. It lessens the importance by simply calling them: parts or groups of society
For me, it comes down to the old (modified) adage, "I don't agree with what you're not saying, but I'll defend your right to not say it." Just because you've got money to pay me doesn't mean I'll do anything you want. I'm not a whore. Laws that prohibit the right to refuse service make us slaves to the customer, and I can't agree to that, even if I believe that it's shameful to refuse service on the basis of a person's identity. I'll join you in denouncing the scum. But, when it comes to passing laws, some time in the future, I might find that same law or policy applied to me in relation some group or individual I despise (white supremacists, for instance), and I don't want to be legally subjugated to performing whatever they request of me. The customer is not always right.
Don't believe everything that you read.
Quote by Just_A_Guy_You_Know
For me, it comes down to the old (modified) adage, "I don't agree with what you're not saying, but I'll defend your right to not say it." Just because you've got money to pay me doesn't mean I'll do anything you want. I'm not a whore. Laws that prohibit the right to refuse service make us slaves to the customer, and I can't agree to that, even if I believe that it's shameful to refuse service on the basis of a person's identity. I'll join you in denouncing the scum. But, when it comes to passing laws, some time in the future, I might find that same law or policy applied to me in relation some group or individual I despise (white supremacists, for instance), and I don't want to be legally subjugated to performing whatever they request of me. The customer is not always right.
Yeah the right to refuse service has existed. But that was giving business that right if the customer was being an asshole, taking advantage, not wearing shoes etc. Not for just being gay. The republicans decided to add, just being gay to it. That's discrimination no matter how much you want to sugarcoat it.
This is what you guys sound like trying to act like refusing service to gay people isn't technically discrimination.
