Return to War in the Middle East

It's interesting to hear republicans try to pin this on Biden. Trump claims Hamas attacked Israel because Biden projects weakness. You know what actually projects weakness? A dysfunctional government that may or may not shut itself down every couple of months due to an ultra-conservative (extremist) faction that seems to be holding congress hostage until their ludicrous demands are met. It's like taunting a runner for losing a race after they cut his fucking foot off. It's them! They are not just making America look weak or projecting weakness - they are actively weakening the nation by undermining America's ability to address issues of national and international importance in order to play petty political games.

Quote by Just_A_Guy_You_Know

It's interesting to hear republicans try to pin this on Biden. Trump claims Hamas attacked Israel because Biden projects weakness. You know what actually projects weakness? A dysfunctional government that may or may not shut itself down every couple of months due to an ultra-conservative (extremist) faction that seems to be holding congress hostage until their ludicrous demands are met. It's like taunting a runner for losing a race after they cut his fucking foot off. It's them! They are not just making America look weak or projecting weakness - they are actively weakening the nation by undermining America's ability to address issues of national and international importance in order to play petty political games.

What do you expect? Republicans were blaming Biden for the fires in Hawaii… everything will continue to be Biden’s fault according to them. Ruining things and blaming it on the democrats is what they have always done.

Really hard for me to feel like Israel is a victim here. They terrorize the Palestinians. Their counter offensive within hours created a higher civilian body count than the Hamas attack. Israel functions as America’s imperialistic toe hold in the region.

I feel bad for Palestinian citizens here. Classic imperialism; torture and kill people till they fight back, use the retaliation to justify an escalation in violence. Straight out of America’s playbook.

Quote by RowanThorn

Really hard for me to feel like Israel is a victim here. They terrorize the Palestinians. Their counter offensive within hours created a higher civilian body count than the Hamas attack. Israel functions as America’s imperialistic toe hold in the region.

I feel bad for Palestinian citizens here. Classic imperialism; torture and kill people till they fight back, use the retaliation to justify an escalation in violence. Straight out of America’s playbook.

The Israeli citizens that got killed/hurt are victims for sure. But the state of Israel? Nah, it's not the victim here.

Quote by ElCoco

Except that Hamas attacked Israel and taken civilian hostages, and Israel isn't America.

There’s a civilian death total in Palestine somewhere the size of 9/11 every few months. Not to mention that Gaza is essentially an outdoor prison controlled by the Israeli military.

Israel’s military is funded by America every year, billions and billions of dollars are spent. They also have a stockpile of nukes via the US. They are our military presence, soldiers supplied by a mandatory period of military service (aka slave drafting) from every citizen in Israel.

Quote by RowanThorn

There’s a civilian death total in Palestine somewhere the size of 9/11 every few months. Not to mention that Gaza is essentially an outdoor prison controlled by the Israeli military.

Israel’s military is funded by America every year, billions and billions of dollars are spent. They also have a stockpile of nukes via the US. They are our military presence, soldiers supplied by a mandatory period of military service (aka slave drafting) from every citizen in Israel.

You’re talking what’s reality to people consumed by right wing propaganda. Of course terrorism is wrong and evil as well. It’s a complicated situation with bad actors on both sides. The Palestinians just have less options, it’s either take it or terrorist type warfare.

Quote by Ironic

As you know, I haven't been "crying about Biden supporting Ukraine."

Why do you post things that aren't true about me?

So you think it’s good that Biden supports Ukraine and that we send them weapons and aid that runs into the billions of dollars?

Quote by Ironic

Why do you post things you don't know are true about me?

I’m asking you a question.. You refuse to confirm that you support Ukraine. So that means I’m not saying anything untrue about you.

I think I can safely say that you just post things to purposely act stupid and agitate because you’re contradicting yourself, you hint at others not supporting Ukraine then you cry about supporting Ukraine and back and forth.

Thank you for proving you are not to be taken seriously.

Bless 🙏

Quote by ElCoco

Because he knows he can get away with posting things that aren't true about you. That's why.

The reason he can get away with it is because none of you ever dare to confirm one way or the other. You're all trying way too hard to be the Schrödinger cat of opinion. That's why.

Quote by MsStep

I feel comfortable condemning terrorists, and the videos I’ve seen yesterday and today show Hamas’ fighters taking civilian hostages. I guess there will be people who will say those videos aren’t what they seem to be, but that’s how it looks.

I think those videos indeed show stuff that's actually happening there. And those hostages are indeed victims of Hamas's violence.

At the same time the citizens of Gaza are, for many decades now, being held hostage by Israel. Terms that apply to Israel regarding Palestinians are apartheid and ethnic cleansing.
So while everyone may be shocked by the violence and the scale of the attack, everyone should have known another violent Palestinian revolt against Israel was to be expected (this is not specifically directed at you, MsStep). And given that Israel will probably not change its attitude towards Palestinians, there surely will be many more after this one.

Quote by noll

I think those videos indeed show stuff that's actually happening there. And those hostages are indeed victims of Hamas's violence.

At the same time the citizens of Gaza are, for many decades now, being held hostage by Israel. Terms that apply to Israel regarding Palestinians are apartheid and ethnic cleansing.
So while everyone may be shocked by the violence and the scale of the attack, everyone should have known another violent Palestinian revolt against Israel was to be expected (this is not directed at you, MsStep). And given that Israel will probably not change its attitude towards Palestinians, there surely will be many more after this one.

Founding of Israel is weirdly a result of anti-semitism. The WW2 ally’s were largely anti-Semitic, not to the extent of the Nazis but very much so. They didn’t want Jews in their country and they secured their Zionist fighting forces by with a deal to give them a country. Post WW2 the Zionist with backing of the English who had secured the land during a colonist invasion and WW1 weee given the land. This was occupied territory that was very violently stolen from the Palestinians and gifted to the Jewish refugees.

Ever since the US and it’s Allie’s flooded Israel with military tech, weapons, and money. They also supplied direct military aid whenever it got dicey. The end result was a nuclear powered Israel that put a chokehold on Gaza Strip and they turned it into a genocidal slum.

There are many nuances and back and forth with this conflict but I at the heart of the matter Israel are colonizers that violently overthrew the locals and repress them to this day.

Hamas are terrorists, but so is Israel. And Israel have created a much, much larger civilian body count with no actual threat of repercussions. This also really makes people fear that any epicenter of nuclear conflict will be Israel.

Stop me if you've heard this before, but here goes: I have yet again had to remove several posts by ElCoco & Ironic due to the usual pedantic "debate" tactic that centers redirecting actual discussion of the topic at hand. I will not do so again. I will simply lock the thread.

Quote by ElCoco

Here's a map of Gaza.

Why are you leaving out Gaza's other border? Gaza also has a border with Egypt, and the Israeli military doesn't control that one.

Is that death total in Palestine? If it's in Gaza why don't you use the right name?

Same reason I refer to the America’s as Turtle Island. I don’t acknowledge stolen land the way the colonizers want me to because I don’t recognize their right to invade it.

If you don’t understand how Israel controls this land maybe you should read up on it. Ignorance in the Information Age is voluntary.

Quote by ElCoco

Do you condemn Hamas' use of terrorist tactics?

Yes, but no more than I condemn Israel's decades of state terror/ethnic cleansing against Palestinians.

Quote by Ironic

It’s encouraging to see the EU’s reaction to Hamas’ attack on Israel.

EU freezes development aid to Palestinians after Hamas attack

It’s encouraging that citizens will be starved to death? That this aid which is directly for citizens which include 1,000,000 children who are blockaded in a city will be free to die?

Or is the Israeli response to bomb unconfirmed target after target which has so far killed a confirmed 1,000 women and children the encouraging response?

Please tell me what part of cutting off fuel and medicine to a densely packed urban environment where the citizens aren’t allowed to leave is encouraging?

Quote by Ironic

It’s encouraging to see the EU react to Hamas's aggression toward Israel in the same spirit the EU reacted to Russia's aggression toward Ukraine.

So that was a yes, you find it encouraging that they will starve children on stolen land. This reaction was also popular with Americans when it was committing genocide against the indigenous people here.

So

Quote by Ironic

No, it was not, as you know.

What relevance does your second sentence have to Hamas's aggression on Israel?

It’s encouraging to see the EU react to Hamas's aggression toward Israel in the same spirit the EU reacted to Russia's aggression toward Ukraine. It's encouraging the EU sn't showing a double standard when it comes to aggressor countries.

So Israel capturing the citizen in Gaza, starving them, denying medical care, and dumping their sewage in their waterways was not terrorism?

Killing a few thousand citizens a year with bombing wasn’t terrorism?

Would you have been OK with the UN and US cutting off all aid to Israel before this? Why is Hamas a terrorist threat but not Israel who has undeniably killed many more innocent civilians?

Quote by Ironic

No, it was not, as you know.

What relevance does your second sentence have to Hamas's aggression on Israel?

It’s encouraging to see the EU react to Hamas's aggression toward Israel in the same spirit the EU reacted to Russia's aggression toward Ukraine. It's encouraging the EU sn't showing a double standard when it comes to aggressor countries.

Or do you want to try it another way? If the Jews in Nazi ghettos bombed the Germans were the Jews terrorists?

Quote by Ironic

The Palestinians in Gaza aren't in Israel and aren't Israeli citizens, so there's no more obligation for Israel to supply them with medical care than there is for Israel to supply medical care for Zimbabwe citizens. Israel is not occupying Gaza, Israel didn't launch the attack on Gaza. Hamas launched the attack on Israel.

Get your facts straight.

Damn, this is just ugly lies. Like, it’s just do disjointed from the reality of the situation I find it hard to know where to begin. This isn’t ignorance, this is a google search away from literally thousands of articles and books on this subject.

I can’t argue with self serving misinformation, so I won’t. You choose to be this way and that ugliness is on you.

Quote by Ironic

What I've posted is not only not lies, but it's also correct. Just as one example, you're wrong to say the government of one country is obligated to provide medical services to citizens of another country.

Unless of course it’s a giant open air prison that no one can leave and you set up a joint blockade to control anything going in or out. Because they have never provided medical services, they simply deny them from entering. Along with food, fuel, power, or any other basic living needs.

I encourage you to research what a blockade is, you seem to be unfamiliar with how it works.

Or are you saying prison guards have no obligation to feed the prisoners? I mean it’s not the best analogy because most of the prisoners in Gaza are just innocent citizens who are largely just war refugees.

Is collective punishment no longer a war crime?

Is indiscriminate bombing ok as long as it’s retaliation?

Because looking at the numbers from the last three days it seems as though Israel has killed far more citizens, so are they terrorists too?

Quote by Ironic

A joint blockade? With who?

You're acting as if Israel has never allowed food, fuel, power, or any other basic living needs to enter Gaza, and you're wrong about that too.

If Hamas hadn't attacked Israel, it's likely none of the bombing or retaliation would have happened.

If Israel hadn't been terrorizing Palestine for the last several decades, the Hamas attack wouldn't have happened.

Quote by Ironic

You and I don't agree about your belief that Israel has been terrorizing Palestine for the last several decades.

What am I supposed to do with this useless information that contributes nothing to the discussion at hand?

Quote by Ironic

A joint blockade? With who?

With Egypt. Why do you insist on inserting yourself into a subject you know nothing about? That right there was a jeopardy $200 question.

Quote by Ironic

So the idea you're advancing, that only Israel is responsible for the difficulties in Gaza, is busted. You'll need to develop a better idea.

No, actually. See your ignoring much of what I’ve said in this thread, including laying out the history and current state of the US and various colonizer nations creating and funding this violence. Blaming Israel alone is like blaming the arm only for stabbing someone.

Now give me a straight yes or no answer here. Do you believe starving children is an appropriate response to a terrorist attack?

Quote by MsStep
I feel comfortable condemning terrorists, and the videos I’ve seen yesterday and today show Hamas’ fighters taking civilian hostages.

This feels correct to me: I cannot condone the terrorist actions of Hamas, and I think they've set their cause back decades with this kind of action.

I was somewhat sympathetic to Hamas; I think Israel over-reacts to incursions of its borders, and are responsible for a large chunk of the bloodshed and sorrow in that region. And I think they are sliding dangerously to the right. But Hamas has lost any of my sympathy with these actions, and the sympathy of the world as well. Israel is gonna level Palestine, and they have been given permission to do so by these actions.

The whole coming war--I don't believe we've seen anything yet--is gonna be rough, and the prospect of it makes me deeply sad.

Quote by Ensorceled

This feels correct to me: I cannot condone the terrorist actions of Hamas, and I think they've set their cause back decades with this kind of action.

I was somewhat sympathetic to Hamas; I think Israel over-reacts to incursions of its borders, and are responsible for a large chunk of the bloodshed and sorrow in that region. And I think they are sliding dangerously to the right. But Hamas has lost any of my sympathy with these actions, and the sympathy of the world as well. Israel is gonna level Palestine, and they have been given permission to do so by these actions.

The whole coming war--I don't believe we've seen anything yet--is gonna be rough, and the prospect of it makes me deeply sad.

Really hard for me to paint Hamas as bad guys here. This tactic that I truly believe will be used to justify wiping out huge amounts of people was utilized by America, England, the Dutch, and the Nazis.

They oppress, murder, and put a chokehold on a people. The second they retaliate it’s used as ‘evidence’ to justify a cultural annihilation. It was exactly what America did again and again as it exterminated over 500 tribal cultures in it’s westward expansion. Rocket strikes into Gaza that killed ordinary citizens were an everyday occurrence before this happened. Press who reported it were assassinated by the Israeli government with no punishment or blowback. Food and medicine was withheld from the entire region and planting crops was made illegal. What could they do besides hit back?

Quote by RowanThorn

So Israel capturing the citizen in Gaza, starving them, denying medical care, and dumping their sewage in their waterways was not terrorism?

Killing a few thousand citizens a year with bombing wasn’t terrorism?

Would you have been OK with the UN and US cutting off all aid to Israel before this? Why is Hamas a terrorist threat but not Israel who has undeniably killed many more innocent civilians?

It’s all about who the target is. The Palestinian people are Arabs. So of course America and most western countries just don’t care if they have also been terrorized for decades.

Palestinian “terrorist”

Israeli “commando”

Same shit really.

Quote by Magical_felix

It’s all about who the target is. The Palestinian people are Arabs. So of course America and most western countries just don’t care if they have also been terrorized for decades.

Palestinian “terrorist”

Israeli “commando”

Same shit really.

Remember when Time Magazine ran that article about the next wave of Freedom Fighters that America is training to fight communism? And the whole article was about how great Al Qaeda, Hamas, and a scrappy young Osama Bin Laden was? That aged like a fine wine. Hard to find the original article, Time actively finds and burns those issues.

Either way, Freedom Fighter or terrorist. The difference is solely if you are doing what the CIA asks.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/antisoviet-warrior-puts-his-army-on-the-road-to-peace-the-saudi-businessman-who-recruited-mujahedin-now-uses-them-for-largescale-building-projects-in-sudan-robert-fisk-met-him-in-almatig-1465715.html

Quote by Ironic

Just because you said something doesn't make it true. We established that when you suggested Israel has never allowed food, fuel, power, or any other basic living needs to enter Gaza, and you're wrong. How can Israel cut off now something it didn't already supply?

Now that we've established your position of blaming Israel exclusively and pretending Egypt couldn't have helped is also wrong, we can move on to my answer to your question about starving children. I believe starving children isn't an appropriate response to a terrorist attack.

That’s it? That’s your response? Lol

Anyway, this subject is much too serious to discuss with someone like you. RowanThorn hasn’t learned that yet, you’re teaching him rapidly though.

Quote by MsStep

Israel does retaliate severely, but Hamas denies Israel’s right to exist. That makes its attacks on Israel an existential threat from Israel’s POV. Between the two of them they have enough hatred for everyone.

By massacring those 260 ravers, Hamas has given Israel all the reason it needs to return violence. If Hamas does kill hostages, it’ll bomb Gaza into the dark ages.

The land was stolen in Palenstine and gifted to the Zionists in the late 40’s. I have furniture older than Israel. It’s a colony that was violently created by killing the indigenous inhabitants. It was first colonized by Britain and was one of the spoils of world war 1, which was just the colonial countries arguing over how to carve up Arabic lands and Africa.

Why did no one care that there was a constant non-stop massacre happening in an open air prison? What were they supposed to do, politely die?