Transgender Athletics in the News

Men who have transitioned to female are welcome to do so, and live life free and pursue happiness like anyone else.

But athletics is set up in categories to best promote fairness to participants. It is not fair to biological women to have to compete against someone who developed biological male muscles, which as science proves, are much denser and stronger on average, and a male skeletol frame, which gives a distinct advantage in strength, speed, and jumping ability.

There is nothing wrong with having a distinct category for those transitioned from male to compete. That is not discrimination or bigotry, it is physiological science.

Quote by sprite

why do some people have such hate for transgender folk? life is hard enough for them as it is without all the extra abuse and shit piled on them. i know most of you can't imagine what it's like to be the target of hatred, but maybe take a moment and think about it sometime.

Its not about hatred. Why do people default to thinking its about hatred or transphobia? It's about whats fair to women in sport. Imagine you are a female athlete and you have busted your ass for your whole life, sacrificing everything to be the best at your sport and when you get to the place where all that hard work is about to be justified, a guy just comes along and takes it all because he "identifies".

These moves by governing bodies to ban biological males in women's sports its the right decision.

Edit: Sorry to dig up your original post about this but it was the first comment I came to that I felt a need to respond to and I have since read your intention to leave this topic alone.

"It's not fair to have East Africans compete in marathons against regular folks."

Quote by MsStep

Many other people agree with you. I do too, but I also think each sport’s decision should stand on its own merits.

I think something like chess is absolutely ridiculous, so yes, you are right as not all things that are competition rely on strength and endurance. Its amazing that we are even having this conversation.

Quote by noll

"It's not fair to have East Africans compete in marathons against regular folks."

😆

Interesting fact about marathons, kind of. Ultra marathon runners can outrun any animal. Some super fit athletes can run 100 miles or more without stopping. No animal can come close, on land that is. Not suggesting you could beat a racing pigeon.

So I’m never going to be a professional basketball player, I’m short. If biological differences are so fucking important to the average viewer why is there no outcry about the women who are taller than me. There’s no way I can compete. Boohoo I’m so oppressed. These aren’t debates about advantages these are debates used to fuel anti trans rhetoric. Make space for trans people. One day it will be the new normal that some people just fucking have an advantage no matter what. That’s life no matter where you are and what sector you’re discussing.

Quote by PrincessC

So I’m never going to be a professional basketball player, I’m short. If biological differences are so fucking important to the average viewer why is there no outcry about the women who are taller than me...

Should there be any categories at all? As you say, people differ in height, weight, reach, strength etc. The strongest woman is stronger than the weakest man etc. Should there just be one open category so that it's just everyone for themselves?

Quote by DanielleX

Measure the capacity of the individual and match them to those with a similar capacity. Professional sports has the tools. To make it about biology means to actually interrogate all genetics and not just what is between one’s legs at birth.

Quote by ElCoco

Looking back through the posts in this thread, I haven't seen the anti-trans rhetoric you're talking about.

A discussion about biology only as it relates to trans people and not as a whole is anti trans rhetoric.

I think it’s a simple point to make.

Ya'll don't think this is silly at all?

Men took the top two podium spots in the women's singlespeed category at the Illinois State Cyclocross Championships yesterday.

Like, is there that many men competing as women for the top 2 spots to go to men? Or are there just a couple men competing and they just happen to be the best "women" 😵‍💫

Quote by PrincessC

Measure the capacity of the individual and match them to those with a similar capacity. Professional sports has the tools. To make it about biology means to actually interrogate all genetics and not just what is between one’s legs at birth.

This. Human biology is not binary.

Quote by Magical_felix

Ya'll don't think this is silly at all?

Men took the top two podium spots in the women's singlespeed category at the Illinois State Cyclocross Championships yesterday.

Like, is there that many men competing as women for the top 2 spots to go to men? Or are there just a couple men competing and they just happen to be the best "women" 😵‍💫

It's silly indeed. The silly division has silly consequences.

Quote by noll

It's silly indeed. The silly division has silly consequences.

Explain..

Quote by Magical_felix

Explain..

It's the mismatch of trying to accommodate for the fact that reality is not binary, while at the same time holding on to the ol' binary division.

Quote by blastfromthepast
Probably the same feminists who think it’s ok for a man in a dress to enter a female bathroom.

Hello. Referring to trans women as “a man in a dress” is transphobic, which we don’t tolerate on this site.

Please have a care moving forward. Thanks

Only one answer. No Categories. Just One Human Category... males, women, and all transgendered people, all just compete. Just build wider tracks for running competitions.

Quote by noll

It's the mismatch of trying to accommodate for the fact that reality is not binary, while at the same time holding on to the ol' binary division.

If that were the reality most people would identify as non binary and thats not even remotely close to being true. Most people are a man or a woman.

Hey, the murdering Oscar Pistorious often competed against world class athletes and was accused of having an edge against athletes with two functioning pair of legs.

If there are enough transgendered participants - let them have their own Olympics events. You want to go all transgender vs the world - that can be accomplished with exhibitions not unlike the US collegiate All-Stars and All-Americans playing against the previous years Super Bowl winner - as was done for over 20 years - back in the old hazy days of long ago.

Want to engender respect and devotion and get the public on your side? Become like the Harlem Globetrotters. Travel and show the world your talents.

This whole other shit that's been occuring - is just that. Shit. Shit for everyone concerned.

Quote by Buz

Only one answer. No Categories. Just One Human Category... males, women, and all transgendered people, all just compete. Just build wider tracks for running competitions.

This. It's the only way forward to achieve truly fair sport.

Quote by Magical_felix

If that were the reality most people would identify as non binary and thats not even remotely close to being true. Most people are a man or a woman.

Nope. The reality of human biology is simply not binary as there are folks who don't match that binary division. It doesn't mean it applies to most folks or not.

Our culture has been very binary focussed for ages, and therefore people have been pushed to adhere to this binary division. Transgender identities were largely hidden and intersex physiologies were most often surgically changed to match the binary.

It's only recently that we've started to see that change slowly, and I expect it'll take another while before we get a clear grasp of how far off the binary divide really is.

We can hold on to the strict division, and have a growing group of people be treated as second class citizens by excluding them from sports, or we can try to fit the non-binary reality in the binary division, which seem silly hacks. Or we can do away with the binary divide altogether and come up with something better, like categories based on abilities related to each specific sport. That takes more effort, of course, especially for those who think using different pronouns is already too much to ask.

Quote by ElCoco

Trans people aren't being excluded, the new rules explicitly include trans people.

What are you responding to?

Quote by noll

Nope. The reality of human biology is simply not binary as there are folks who don't match that binary division. It doesn't mean it applies to most folks or not.

Our culture has been very binary focussed for ages, and therefore people have been pushed to adhere to this binary division. Transgender identities were largely hidden and intersex physiologies were most often surgically changed to match the binary.

It's only recently that we've started to see that change slowly, and I expect it'll take another while before we get a clear grasp of how far off the binary divide really is.

We can hold on to the strict division, and have a growing group of people be treated as second class citizens by excluding them from sports, or we can try to fit the non-binary reality in the binary division, which seem silly hacks. Or we can do away with the binary divide altogether and come up with something better, like categories based on abilities related to each specific sport. That takes more effort, of course, especially for those who think using different pronouns is already too much to ask.

I have a gray hair, I guess that means I'm not a brunette.

Look, one of the reasons people push back against trans people is bigotry yes, but also when they do shit like go and dominate women's sports. You're never going to convince me or anyone rational that men competing against women is fair. Or the other way around either. Like a female gymnast is just better than man at certain things. Of course there are exceptions and there are some people that have messed up genetics. That is not even close to being the norm to go and be like well every single athlete needs to be evaluated and put against another athlete with exact same size and strength blah blah blah. That is so stupid.... so so stupid.

I take it you don't have daughters? One of mine is tall, she's 10 but plays with the 12 year olds because she's extremely strong and fast for her age. They played a team with a straight up boy a few months ago and that boy got like every rebound, muscled the girls around so much they wouldn't even get close when he had the ball, they just gave up. It was such total bullshit because these girls work hard to try and win these tournaments then get totally deflated by nonsense like that. Not to mention the rest of the parents are just visibly super annoyed but everyone stays polite during the game but afterword everyone agrees it's not right. It juts feels like cheating. And it's not just the parents, the kids feel it too. It's bullshit.

Quote by Magical_felix

I have a gray hair, I guess that means I'm not a brunette.

LOL, hairs don't have rights, nor feelings for that matter. Nor is there a binary division about hair colors. But even if there was such a thing, then you'd be making my point in showing how silly such division was. Like, will you still be a brunette once you have only 1 dark hair left? And if not, at what exact point will you flip from brunette to non-brunette?

Like I said: silly.

Look, one of the reasons people push back against trans people is bigotry yes, but also when they do shit like go and dominate women's sports. You're never going to convince me or anyone rational that men competing against women is fair. Or the other way around either. Like a female gymnast is just better than man at certain things. Of course there are exceptions and there are some people that have messed up genetics. That is not even close to being the norm to go and be like well every single athlete needs to be evaluated and put against another athlete with exact same size and strength blah blah blah. That is so stupid.... so so stupid.

I take it you don't have daughters? One of mine is tall, she's 10 but plays with the 12 year olds because she's extremely strong and fast for her age. They played a team with a straight up boy a few months ago and that boy got like every rebound, muscled the girls around so much they wouldn't even get close when he had the ball, they just gave up. It was such total bullshit because these girls work hard to try and win these tournaments then get totally deflated by nonsense like that. Not to mention the rest of the parents are just visibly super annoyed but everyone stays polite during the game but afterword everyone agrees it's not right. It juts feels like cheating. And it's not just the parents, the kids feel it too. It's bullshit.

So, you're okay that your daughter of 10 has to compete against 12-year-olds, apparently because she matches up against them. Well, that's kinda what I'd propose: people competing at a certain level, based on how they match up.

Quote by noll

So, you're okay that your daughter of 10 has to compete against 12-year-olds, apparently because she matches up against them. Well, that's kinda what I'd propose: people competing at a certain level, based on how they match up.

Yeah but they’re girls.. a similar sized boy will always be stronger than a similar sized girl. I mean I literally witnessed it.

Quote by Magical_felix

Yeah but they’re girls.. a similar sized boy will always be stronger than a similar sized girl. I mean I literally witnessed it.

So, then that's a silly match. But perhaps he's a good match to 13 or 14 year old girls.

Quote by Magical_felix

Yeah but they’re girls.. a similar sized boy will always be stronger than a similar sized girl. I mean I literally witnessed it.

But a boy who is younger might be a good fit because it is about biological capacity and not whether he’s a boy or not.

Quote by noll

So, then that's a silly match. But perhaps he's a good match to 13 or 14 year old girls.

Quote by PrincessC

But a boy who is younger might be a good fit because it is about biological capacity and not whether he’s a boy or not.

You guys can have fun sorting all that out... Hard enough to get competent referees and coaches and you guys think every kid is going to be sorted out perfectly into leagues with different ages and sexes by some biology expert volunteers.

lol

Girls should play with girls in competitions, leagues and tournaments. Wanting boys to go in there and dominate girl's leagues too is not feminist, progressive or enlightened. It's ridiculous and crazy and only hurts the trans movement. Most people are fine with trans people, it's things like men in women's sports that makes people go you know what, never mind... what's next, scholarships for women going to men too? Or whatever slippery slope they fear.

In reality, not everyone can do everything.

Quote by Magical_felix

You guys can have fun sorting all that out... Hard enough to get competent referees and coaches and you guys think every kid is going to be sorted out perfectly into leagues with different ages and sexes by some biology expert volunteers.

lol

Girls should play with girls in competitions, leagues and tournaments. Wanting boys to go in there and dominate girl's leagues too is not feminist, progressive or enlightened. It's ridiculous and crazy and only hurts the trans movement. Most people are fine with trans people, it's things like men in women's sports that makes people go you know what, never mind... what's next, scholarships for women going to men too? Or whatever slippery slope they fear.

In reality, not everyone can do everything.

Actually, they have it figured out in kids' Jujutsu and wrestling leagues. There's a required age at the outset, but kids are matched based on weight/height regardless of gender.

Quote by Dani

Actually, they have it figured out in kids' Jujutsu and wrestling leagues. There's a required age at the outset, but kids are matched based on weight/height regardless of gender.

That is not the norm... Kids jiu jitsu tournaments are not mixed gender. Maybe training or whatever but the competitions are not unless you're talking about some random league where people specifically sign up to a mixed gender tournament. I am talking about a GIRLS basketball tournament having a random boy on the team and the boy dominating being bullshit.

Do you have some proof that kids JJ competitions are normally mixed gender?

Quote by Magical_felix

That is not the norm... Kids jiu jitsu tournaments are not mixed gender. Maybe training or whatever but the competitions are not unless you're talking about some random league where people specifically sign up to a mixed gender tournament. I am talking about a GIRLS basketball tournament having a random boy on the team and the boy dominating being bullshit.

Do you have some proof that kids JJ competitions are normally mixed gender?

Chill out, Ironic.

But seriously, I have younger cousins that compete, and they were mixed gender. Maybe it's only for the 12 and under division, but I've seen it.

The point I'm making is that it's possible. Takes extra work, sure, but it's feasible. It only appears impossible because it isn't the norm.