Who Owns History?

Quote by Chryses

A Dutch museum says its archaeologists have been banned from carrying out excavations at a key Egyptian site over an exhibition exploring the influence of ancient Egypt on black musicians.

 

Much has recently been written about how a recent Netflix series depicting Queen Cleopatra as a black African was a "falsification of history" or at least as "cultural appropriation."

And now,

The exhibition at the National Museum of Antiquities (RMO) - entitled Kemet. Egypt in Hip Hop, jazz, soul & funk - aims to demonstrate how Ancient Egypt and Nubia have been "an undeniable source of inspiration for musicians of African descent for over 70 years".

Are these expressions of art with just claims of free speech (at least in some countries), or are they apparent distortions of history and to be condemned as such?

We do know Cleopatra was a Ptolemy. The Ptolemy family lineage was highly inbred, and they were Greeks. Cleopatra could've had a Black African ancestor, though. We do know from extensive Egyptian artwork that Egyptian people were represented by the full spectrum of skin tones.

Nothing new

Here is Affleck playing a Mexican.

Angelina Jolie playing Mariane Pearl, a light skinned black lady.

Mena Suvari playing Chante Jawan Mallard, a real life black lady. They even gave her cornrows...

Quote by Ironic

She doesn’t look like Chante Jawan Mallard.

What do you mean?

what Jesus probably looked like vs how he's usually portrayed...

Quote by sprite

what Jesus probably looked like vs how he's usually portrayed...

Ya,guay wasn't a real person though.

Quote by Ironic

Why are you posting distractions this time?

I'm asking you what you mean because I thought it was pretty obvious why I posted what I did. So you're either really unintelligent or you're purposely missing the point. Which is it?

Quote by Ironic

And that has what bearing upon Cleopatra's heritage?

Is the point of the thread not to highlight inaccurate representations/depictions (in this case related to ethnic heritage) of historical figures and discuss whether or not it's free speech vs. historical distortions?

And to that point, posting historical figures being ethnically misrepresented in media is relevant to the subject at hand.

Carry on.

Quote by Ironic

And that has what bearing upon Cleopatra's heritage?

the topic was "who owns history". I think it's relevant.

Quote by Ironic

Mariane Pearl was born in Clichy, Hauts-de-Seine, France, to a Cuban mother of Afro-Chinese-Cuban descent and a Dutch Jewish father.

Why are you calling her a black lady? Why not an oriental lady?

"oriental lady"? dude. Try "Asian".

Quote by Ironic

Which likeness was made during Jesus's lifetime?

are you suggesting that the white version with the blue eyes might possibly be correct, or are you just being an ass? neither is the correct answer, obviously.

Gee, Hollywood movies are just entertainment and rarely historically accurate. Actors are just acting. Don't get worked up over an actor playing someone they are not. If Tom Cruise had to dogfight a real fighter pilot, he'd be dead right away. Cruise might be too short to see over the dash anyhow.

History is often hijacked from accurate reality to push a political agenda. The German Nazis pushed a false historical narrative in a huge way to promote their racist beliefs.

Quote by Ironic

So, why have you posted pictures of movie actors wearing makeup when the question is about Cleopatra's heritage? That seems like a question you should be willing to answer.

Ok so it's an intelligence issue with you... Let me explain my point.

Conservatives like Chryses are taking issue with a black actor being cast as Cleopatra because it's inaccurate, never mind that Elizabeth Taylor isn't accurate either. I mean look at that bust your BF posted, it's a lady with a bird beak nose, a friar Tuck hair style and an Aussie mullet in the back.

Always an issue with black actors cast in roles but never with white actors cast in roles. If we are to actually look at this issue throughout the years there have been an overwhelming amount of race swapping with white actors being cast in non-white roles of real people over black actors being cast in white roles.

In conclusion, I believe the current Cleopatra uproar is more rooted in racism than historical accuracy.

Do you have any other stupid questions, Ironic?

Quote by Chryses

Indeed so. For obvious reasons, the Egyptian Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities takes its ancient history seriously. It has taken a dim view of the revisionist interpretations of depictions of certain figures and practices. That the Ministry has the facts on its side is of little interest to the various artists.

The Egyptian Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities is miffed about an inaccurate representation of Cleopatra in media, and they've made it known with supporting facts, as we're now all aware, including those involved in the creation of the aforementioned media. It's not being touted for its accuracy, as we're also aware. Now what?

Is this conversation going anywhere, or do you plan on talking in the same circle? If it's the latter, please let me know now so I can lock this thread. Such pedantic meanderings do nothing but clog the Think Tank.

Maybe Cleopatra should be played by Mark Zuckerberg if we are looking for accuracy. But I'm sure conservatives and the nerds at the Egyptian ministry of truth or whatever will be upset by that too.

Quote by Chryses

Yes. I suspect the Ministry would "push back".

Why? He's white and also a dead ringer for Cleopatra.

Quote by Chryses

Pedantic meanderings? Not here, Do you have a problem with the facts as the Ministry sees them?

I suggest historians, rather than the entertainment industry, provide more useful History, although not all will agree with me about that.

Yes. Pedantic meanderings. You do it frequently, and it stalls rather than drives a conversation. It's okay that you're not aware when it's happening. I'll point it out as long as you engage in such behavior, and ask you to stop, or edit/remove posts that contain such meanderings, as you run the risk of derailing your own thread.

Thank you.

Quote by Chryses

Just as not everyone agrees with me, so too not everyone will agree with that assessment.

Did you look at both pictures? I would have guessed that was a bust of the Zuck if it were presented to me out of context.

Quote by Chryses

In what way?

By disrupting any conversation that can be had by contributing little to nothing, of course, which is at the heart of being pedantic.

Speaking of derailing threads, this present conversation is doing just that. I've clarified the circumstances under which you take away from the conversation at hand, and the measures that will be taken if you continue to do so. This conversation is now over, and I won't be responding/elaborating any further.

Thank you.

Quote by Dani

Speaking of derailing threads, this present conversation is doing just that.

That Cleopatra bust is fucking dead on Mark Zuckerberg.

Quote by Magical_felix

That Cleopatra bust is fucking dead on Mark Zuckerberg.

Which leads me to the question, is historical accuracy just based on physical resemblance?

Quote by Dani

Which leads me to the question, is historical accuracy just based on physical resemblance?

In this instance yes because the uproar started right when a black actor was cast. Nothing to do with the performance.

Quote by Magical_felix

In this instance yes because the uproar started right when a black actor was cast. Nothing to do with the performance.

I agree. History and the stories of brown people have long been whitewashed, so I have very little empathy in the incredibly rare instances when the opposite happens. And the false equivalences are maddening, especially when I think about how much intentionality goes into whitewashing the history and stories of brown people.

An Irish guy playing a Greek.

Not even a real blond.

Quote by Dani

I agree. History and the stories of brown people have long been whitewashed, so I have very little empathy in the incredibly rare instances when the opposite happens. And the false equivalences are maddening, especially when I think about how much intentionality goes into whitewashing the history and stories of brown people.

So I guess historically, when it comes to Hollywood, white people have been the "ones to own history".

Quote by Magical_felix

So I guess historically, when it comes to Hollywood, white people have been the "ones to own history".

Yup.

Quote by Chryses

I invite you to search for any post of mine taking issue with a black actor being cast as Cleopatra because it's inaccurate.

Good luck!

Okay, can you explain why it is inaccurate besides the fact that she is black?

Quote by Chryses

One question at a time, if you don't mind.

Have you been able to find any post of mine taking issue with a black actor being cast as Cleopatra because it's inaccurate?

Yes, the original thread post...

Now, can you explain why it is inaccurate besides the fact that she is black?