Quote by ElCoco

I think you're not looking at what the issue was. The issue wasn't about being forced to bake a cake. The issue was whether the law forced her to express an opinion she disagreed with. Right or wrong, she thinks marriage is something that happens between a male and a female, and the law said she had to create something celebrating a marriage between a male and another male.

she's not expressing an opinion. she's merely baking a cake. that doesn't mean she approves or disapproves. she can continue to disapprove (and continue being a bigot) after they pick up their cake

Quote by Ironic

I'm glad to read you're trying to improve things. You seem upset or angry about other people's opinions, even though you can't do anything about what they think about other people. I don't think that anger is productive or healthy.

There's lots of information about why trans women should have their own competition category, but it's usually based on the different post-puberty physiological development of males and females. I don't think it's fair to a young female to invest an enormous amount of time and effort to train for a physical sport just so she can place second or third after people whose body is built like a male.

anger is incredibly healthy if channeled properly. anger fuels action. if you're not angry, you're less likely to do something to change things. lots of the legislation that the LGBTQ community has pushed through comes through anger. the stonewall riots, that got the ball rolling, were fueled by anger. indifference is not healthy nor productive. anger is an amazing tool.

and i don't feel that it's fair for a woman-man transgender person to invest an enormous amount of time and effort to train for a physical sport just to be told he can't compete. and what about all those man-to-woman transgendered folk who are nowhere as good as their female counterparts? who don't have the talent to compete and win? you don't hear about them in the news, because it's not as sensational, but THAT is where 99% of transgender athletes fall. i mean, just because someone is built like a male, you think they can beat out someone like Biles, or Ledecki, or Cohen?

Quote by ElCoco

It's about what the baker is being forced to do. The customer might not be gay. It's about the baker being free to say, "No, that's not something I want to do."

omg! i'm a baker and i'm being forced to bake a cake! i will never ever get over this! funny that gay bakers never refuse to make cakes celebrating straight weddings. i mean, can you imagine the outrage if that started happening?

Quote by ElCoco

And he'd be prosecuted for murder, just like he would have always been.

which doesn't bring the deceased back to life. see? that's the thing. you stir people up to the point of them committing violence against others and then they do and it's done. nothing that happens afterward makes up for the fact that someone is dead because of those actions.

Quote by Ironic

They do, but the only perceptions under our control are our own.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I got a sense from sprite's posts that she's upset about how the rest of society perceives her life. I think since she can't control society's perceptions, she isn't benefitting from being upset about them. What she can control and do is be a good example of an individual and stop worrying about something she can't control.

People can control any efforts they might have in getting allies to help change the laws they think need changing, so your idea along those lines would be positive.

nope. you got it wrong. i could care less how society perceives me as long as they afford me equal rights and protection and leave me alone to live my life as i see fit, that's the issue here - someone hates me because i'm gay? fine. their issue. someone takes away my rights or threatens me or commits crimes against me because i'm gay? THAT is the issue here. and obviously, since i AM a minority, and the majority seems comfortable in creating laws that take away my rights, it's not as easy as simply voting in people who are more LGBTQ+ friendly. can you imagine living in placees like Florida and Texas and the like and being gay when the folks in power a very vocal about you not being welcome there? you offer a very pollyanna dream of just liking yourself and changing things. i like myself fine and trust me, we (my wife and i) are involved in trying to make changes, but it takes more than two to effect change and a lot of people are very resistant to it.

and it's not always obvious bigotry. what set me off was the discussion of Trans people in sports and the fact that people seem to forget that these are people being discussed, with dreams of their own of playing sports, of being given a chance to do what they love, of BEING treated with dignity and respect and empathy, something i'm not seeing very much of in most of the posts.

Quote by Ensorceled

Loved Hijack. The last 10 minutes were kinda dumb, but overall I was great.

Just finished the first season of The Bear. LOVED it.

the Bear is brilliant, if super stressful. wait until you dig into season 2, omg,

Quote by Chryses

Were you to refuse service to anyone wearing a cross, I would expect you to be successfully prosecuted for discrimination, as not wanting "them doing anything funny" with your wine seems to me to be an inadequate basis for you refusing to serve members of the public,

I think it wise to review that sales strategy with a local lawyer.

edited

in the context of the subject, Felix could just pull out his shotgun and shoot them. i mean, sure, it would be a dick move, but hey, that's kind of where we are headed right now.

Quote by Chryses

Another sport recognizes the physiological differences between males and females. British Rowing updates Competition Eligibility Policy and Procedures

 

It is encouraging to see the addition of an “Open” category as part of the updates.

be even more encouraging when we can see separate categories for blacks, too - i mean, they dominate in track and field and other sports. seems kind of unfair. and what about all those asian table tennis players and hispanic football (soccer for all you 'muricans) players? can we please go back to segregating sports like god intended?

Quote by Seeker4

I wonder if you'll hear from anyone who actually fits what you're talking about. Ensorceled and I don't. I have been a supporter since the United Church of Canada went through a divisive battle over whether openly gay people could be ordained. To their everlasting credit, the church's General Council voted not to block ordination of gay people and the first openly gay minister (there were others before but not open, though one in my area was a worst kept secret) was ordained shortly thereafter. His husband, also a United Church minister, later become the church's first gay moderator. Sadly, my own congregation came down on the wrong side and that's probably part of why I eventually drifted away to Unitarian Universalism, where I joined a Welcoming congregation (some faiths/denominations also call it Affirming) whose chaplain performed the second same-sex marriage in London (Metropolitan Community Church went first).

Back on topic, straight on LGBTQ+ hate crime is one of the most terrible shames of Western society, though it seems especially strong in the US with some spillover into Canada (we had protests over drag queen storytime here in London, Ontario this year). Since I have been an ally since my teens and tentatively started identifying as bi myself in the past few years, I am really not sure why it sparks such hatred and violence. I am simply not plugged in enough to that segment of society. I think only race inspires as much animosity these days. Part of it may be that as more and more of society supports LGBTQ friendly policies (e.g. a decade after Canada allowed same-sex marriage, something like 70% of Canadians were in favour, not sure of current numbers) the opponents are feeling isolated and besieged in their opinions and are lashing out. But why there are still opponents at all, why people cannot accept people as people without worrying about who they sleep with or how they express their gender, remains a mystery to me. Which means, of course, I am really not sure of what the solutions are beyond taking names and kicking asses when appropriate.

when i posted this i expected it to me more of a litmus test than anything else. bit sad about that. i would like to get some honest feedback on the subject and not have it be an echo chamber - maybe some actual real discussion on the subject. and sadly, taking names and kicking asses is not a viable solution, or i'd be out doing it (dressed as Batman, probably). thing is, i've put a lot of energy into trying to change minds in non-confrontational ways, but it usually leaves me frustrated, that is what this thread is about - me being frustrated.

we fairly recently bought a house. it's in a nice hood. we are good neighbors. we keep the place looking nice, we're not loud, we are friendly and helpful (the woman next door is elderly so i usually mow her front lawn when i'm doing ours). couple down the street hate us. have since day one, the only real reason i can think of is that we're lesbians (confirmed by one of our neighbors). it's not a good feeling, although i can't say it's one i'm not used to. i mean, yes, we do a small, non-obtrusive, pride flag during Pride, but we're not in your face about our sexuality - that said, we are open about it. i refuse to let one family dictate if i can kiss my wife or hold her hand in public. no oral sex, though. we keep that stuff inside.

at work, we have a lot of diversity. different backgrounds and cultures, i am fairly certain that some of the women and some of their kids lean towards being gay, but are 'forbidden' to express it among their peers or anyone else, for that matter. it's quite . it does make me sad but i can't/won't push the issue. not my right to out someone.

back to the topic at hand. the backlash is real. for every step forward we take towards acceptance, the fear seems to grow. marriage was a biggie and apparently quite threatening to some people. the trans community starting to become more visible is the same thing. it's not like there are suddenly more trans people - it's just that more people are getting comfortable finally being who they are. not so long ago, drag was pretty much an acceptable thing - now, all of a sudden, there is legislation outlawing it. it's mind-bending, to be honest. how is that even harmful?

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/wave-of-anti-lgbtq-laws-passed-across-country/

see, here's the thing. i fell in love with another woman. we got married. how is that a threat to anyone? to our country? to our way of life? why is it such and issue? and yet, it is. same with trans folk. they identify whom they identify as. how is that a threat to anyone else? how about people just back off and accept them for who they are and stop treating them like freaks? these are real people with real feelings, with dreams, people who want to live their lives, fall in love, be happy. why are people so intent upon denying them these things?

Quote by Ensorceled

The trans community has been dehumanized by the right wing media machine, to scare people into voting Republican.

yes. and they are being treated like they are things. just pawns. that's how it started in germany, btw. they dehumanized the jews (and gays, as well, btw) so that no one blinked an eye when they started shipping them off to concentration camps.

personally, i don't hate straight people, or wish them ill. i just want to them leave us the fuck alone and let use live our lives - i mean, not like our gayness is hurting anyone. i'm constantly being lectured about the gay agenda - want to know what the actual gay agenda is? just let us love who we love and stay out of our fucking lives if you can't deal with it.

It's a little before my time, but when HIV became an issue, it was ignored as a gay disease. no one really cared about finding a cure until it was discovered that it could affect straight folk, too. the overlaying attitude was 'good. maybe it'll kill them all off'.

since people have no problem ganging up on transgender folk, i thought i'd start a thread about how awful straight people are to those in the LGBTQ+ community. let's start with hate crimes. when was the last time you heard about hate crimes being committed by LGBTQ+ folk against straight people? yet it happens all the time the other way around. most recent example, the woman at Lake Arrowhead murdered for displaying a rainbow flag. straight on gay violence yet again. and should i even attempt to start a list of all the politicians who have created, or tried to create, anti-LGBTQ+ policies? why are straight people so hung up on hating LGBTQ+?

why do some people have such hate for transgender folk? life is hard enough for them as it is without all the extra abuse and shit piled on them. i know most of you can't imagine what it's like to be the target of hatred, but maybe take a moment and think about it sometime.

Quote by Chryses

As requested, in my opinion, if you identify a cake in a display case that is for sale that you want to purchase, you cannot be denied the sale because of [the color of your skin, your religious POV, your sexual orientation, etc. ].

If, however, you request the cake maker create a cake celebrating a POV that is inconsistent with the world view of the cake maker, the cake maker can decline to do so.

ok. thanks for the straight answer (pun not intended )

Quote by Chryses
Freedom of speech or religion, perhaps, but not discrimination.

so, i am curious. in YOUR opinion, do business's have the right to deny services to gays based on religious freedom simply because they are gay, or only if they are asking the business to do something that goes against their moral code? for example. if i go in and want to buy a cake, can they tell me no? or can they only deny me if i am asking for a wedding cake celebrating gay marriage?

Quote by Chryses

You are mistaken. I am not indulging in some body count, but merely bringing to your attention that the freedoms you take for granted were expensive to secure, and should not be dismissed lightly. For example, I firmly believe the freedom of speech that many misuse should not be curtailed. You seem to disagree with me about that.

I can accept that disagreement. Can you?

no. i am not, you just don't want to admit that you're a tool for a political party that doesn't actually give a shit about me, about you, about anyone but themselves and their donors.

Quote by Chryses

You are mistaken. I am not indulging in some body count, but merely bringing to your attention that the freedoms you take for granted were expensive to secure, and should not be dismissed lightly. For example, I firmly believe the freedom of speech that many misuse should not be curtailed. You seem to disagree with me about that.

I can accept that disagreement. Can you?

i am all in favor of freedom of speech as outlined in the Constitution. my issue as that the far right and GOP party does not. they their own agenda and they have hi-jacked it in order to push it as the expense of my community. btw, while i might feel like shooting some of the assholes spouting off anti-gay and anti-trans rhetoric, i don't. why? because that's not how it's supposed to work. also, it would be wrong. apparently, that's something that only conservatives do.

Quote by Chryses

Many thousands of our military have died defending the nation you have the freedom to criticize.

the fall back line. oh, well, yeah, but what about...

Quote by Chryses

Many thousands of our military have died defending the nation you have the freedom to criticize.

yep. and many of those deaths were in actions that were ethically and morally bankrupt. Vietnam, anyone? and how many of the far-right politicians were out there defending this nation? so yeah, don't give me that BS line about people dying to defend my freedom. how about all the fucking people not in the military who have died defending my freedoms? don't they count too?

Quote by Chryses

You are correct to say the ruling by the SCOTUS protecting our First Amendment rights was not the cause of the murder.

You are free to express your political opinions; that is the point of the SCOTUS ruling. That does not mean your political opinions are correct.

my opinions, however, are morally and ethically correct and i stand by them and will sleep well tonight having voiced them. apparently, you are more concerned about the "rightness" of the ruling than you are about those who will suffer because of them. you are, imo, and i'm probably not alone, morally bankrupt. i honestly don't wish the kind of fear and stress that those of use in the LGBTQ+ (and pretty much every minority community) live with on a day-to-day basis - no one deserves that - but i sincerely hope that you at least think about what it must but like to stand in another person's shoes. it's called empathy and compassion, two things that seem completely foreign to you.

Quote by Chryses

Free Speech, as realized in the First Amendment is not about violence.

Felix is mistaken.

neither is the second amendment, but hey, that's what it's been turned into.

Quote by Chryses

I reject the proposition that the First Amendment fosters hate and violence. In countries and places where the freedoms you take for granted are suppressed - Free Speech being the poster child - you will find more violence and hatred.

edited

so we should just be thankful that only a few of use are getting murdered because it's much worse in other countries? That woman had friends, a husband, fucking 9 kids. tell them that. hey, your mom died defending free speech cause hey, America is better than a lot of other fucking countries. bet they'll feel pretty good about the whole thing if they know that.

Quote by Chryses

Free Speech, as realized in the First Amendment is not about violence.

Felix is mistaken.

the point is, that people are interpreting it as what ever they want it to be, an agenda being pushed by the far right. this is not about the ruling. this is about the political and social climate of these here United States that has been pushed more and more over the last decade or so by the far right, conservatives, and the Republican party. you can dance around that all you want, but that is what is happening.

Quote by Chryses

The Free Speech Ms. Carleton expressed by flying that flag was not bullshit.

and she was murdered for it. is that what you think free speech should be about? Felix had it right. it's a call to violence and hate on the side of the far right against those they don't want polluting "their country".

Quote by Chryses

It is about Free Speech. The victim, Ms. Carleton, was defending her First Amendment right to free speech by flying the flag in question.

and she was murdered for it because of the rhetoric being pushed by the far right and quite a few politicians who are supposed to be representing ALL of us, while i truth, are doing their best to target those in the gay community. they hate us. they don't even try to hide it, and they foster hate against the LGBTQ+ community. you read about it every day. anti-gay and anti-trans. lots of you even push the idea here - keep trans-women out of sports! must be nice to be able to go about your day not having to worry about being harassed, assaulted, or murdered for simply being you. not all of us have that luxury.

Quote by noll

[Edited- Please get back on topic]

please stay on topic. thanks.

this is not really about free speech, tho, is it. it's about the hatred and fear being fostered by the far-right against the LGBTQ+ community and their allies. they're pretty much opening the doors for people to commit violence and murder against those who belong to either group and then claiming that they can do that because, hey, free speech... so maybe it is a "free speech" issue. the freedom to incite hate and violence against anyone they don't like,