Free speech in peril as trans row engulfs Oxford University

Quote by noll

But a public debate is a platform as well. So should we keep inviting to public debates people who say that some ethnicities are false, while others are true, thereby giving the impression that their ideas are just as valid/credible as any other?

Yes, we should. Your conclusion is one I disagree with, though. I think debate lets people decide which ideas are valid and credible.

Quote by ElCoco

Societies aren't precise. Everybody knows different societies have different norms that change over time. The idea of 'calculating' a 'precise line' is a non-starter.

The right way to mark the limits to freedom of speech is with rules big and bold enough to be obvious to people.

I think we already have this to a large degree. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded place. You can't directly threaten someone. You can't lie about someone when speaking or writing that could cost them income. You can say things other people don't like.

In the UK, though, there are tighter rules on what you can say. That's true in Canada, too. I don't want to see us go that way.

Quote by ElCoco

Of course, we should.

Ideas can change from being wrong to being right over time. Just because some weirdos spout today what you and I think is absurd doesn't mean our great-grandchildren won't think, "Exactly!" For example, take democracy, warts and all. That idea took many years to take hold but is now the preferred form of government where it's permitted.

Let me guess: you're a white heterosexual dude.

I don't think there is any topic that can't be debated. As long as it is conducted poltely, robustly, but without descending into personal insults then nothing should be off the table.

Re: Kathleen Stock. Yes she should be allowed to speak, but ultimately gender rights can only be resolved with legislation.

Quote by ElCoco

Why have you changed your focus from freedom of speech to your guess about my race, sexual preferences, and sex?

It's a very privileged position belonging to all majority groups. Chances that others' freedom of speech will cause you actual hurt, other than hurt feelings perhaps, are very slim, perhaps even totally non-existent.
So, from such a position, to say that we should keep giving platforms to all kinds of speech, even those we know contribute to the dehumanisation of groups of people, is rather safe and easy.

Quote by ElCoco

Yes, to all of that. And sprite's reminded us that we should take responsibility for what we say.

I don't think that people who argue for importance of sex need that reminder, especially if you're in the UK. Starting with Kathleen Stock, who resigned from University of Sussex after 18 years there, because of recent institutional harassment. The same is true of Maya Forstater, whose fellowship at the Centre for Global Development wasn't renewed when she posted gender critical views on line. Allison Bailey, a barrister and lesbian, faced the same treatment when she objected to her court aligning with Stonewall to demonstrate their inclusivity.

They continue to speak on this topic, even though they have all lost something for doing so.

Quote by noll

It's a very privileged position belonging to all majority groups. Chances that others' freedom of speech will cause you actual hurt, other than hurt feelings perhaps, are very slim, perhaps even totally non-existent.
So, from such a position, to say that we should keep giving platforms to all kinds of speech, even those we know contribute to the dehumanisation of groups of people, is rather safe and easy.

What if you're not white, male, or hetero? Is it OK, then, to express this opinion, or does one need another level of marginalization, like a disability?

Quote by Ironic

That's why it should be debated. Who knows? Maybe someday somebody will think up a better way to govern society than doing it by electing people. If an idea can't be discussed, how can it be judged?

So like a dictator… *[edited by moderator]*

Quote by Ironic

That's why it should be debated. Who knows? Maybe someday somebody will think up a better way to govern society than doing it by electing people. If an idea can't be discussed, how can it be judged?

Maybe North Korea's government suits you better.

When Kathleen Stock first came to popular attention after very publicly resigning from her academic job, my first thought was that if I were a trans PhD student and was assigned her as my supervisor I would not be very happy opr comfortable about it. I wondered then whose academic freedom would be undermined? She has said she has no problem with trans people and supports protection for them but it comes across to me anyway as being rather condescending, as if such people were to be pitied.

As for toilets, it sometimes happens that the queue for the Ladies is way too long (women, as usual, being under-provided for) and I use the Gents instead. I wonder what Dr Stock does?

I suppose gluing yourself to the floor is an option. 🤣

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/kathleen-stock-talk-debate-oxford-union-trans-activists-b1084614.html

Quote by AliRegretsNothing

When Kathleen Stock first came to popular attention after very publicly resigning from her academic job, my first thought was that if I were a trans PhD student and was assigned her as my supervisor I would not be very happy opr comfortable about it. I wondered then whose academic freedom would be undermined? She has said she has no problem with trans people and supports protection for them but it comes across to me anyway as being rather condescending, as if such people were to be pitied.

As for toilets, it sometimes happens that the queue for the Ladies is way too long (women, as usual, being under-provided for) and I use the Gents instead. I wonder what Dr Stock does?

I think Dr. Stock's focus is more on women and less on transwomen. What do women have a right to expect from public spaces, like prisons, restrooms, and changing areas? In medical care, particularly intimate medial care, does a woman have a right to request the sex, not the gender, of the person giving her a pelvic exam or breast exam? Does a disabled woman have the right to be bathed by the sex of her choice?

I would expect that restroom queue for the ladies to get longer if anyone feminine-identifying can use the space. If society wants to go this route, we should seriously consider new building codes for restrooms sizes.

Quote by AngelEthics

I think Dr. Stock's focus is more on women and less on transwomen. What do women have a right to expect from public spaces, like prisons, restrooms, and changing areas? In medical care, particularly intimate medial care, does a woman have a right to request the sex, not the gender, of the person giving her a pelvic exam or breast exam? Does a disabled woman have the right to be bathed by the sex of her choice?

Because transwomen are women, the aforementioned applies to transwomen as well.

It's disingenuous to say that Dr. Stock's focus is more on women and less on transwomen, when Dr. Stock's focus is to exclude transwomen from women's rights and advocacy.

Quote by AngelEthics

I suppose gluing yourself to the floor is an option. 🤣

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/kathleen-stock-talk-debate-oxford-union-trans-activists-b1084614.html

I don't want come across as poking fun at Oxford for the type of protest this conversation elicits. In America, one protestor screamed at a San Francisco Board of Supervisors, so that the others in the room could feel her pain. The histrionics span borders, clearly.

Quote by AngelEthics

I don't want come across as poking fun at Oxford for the type of protest this conversation elicits. In America, one protestor screamed at a San Francisco Board of Supervisors, so that the others in the room could feel her pain. The histrionics span borders, clearly.

I saw the gluing incident. I'm assuming the police used some kind of solvent to free her hands, unless it was that poundshop glue. She should have gone to Wilkinsons. I use Gorilla glue, that's good stuff.

Quote by DanielleX

I saw the gluing incident. I'm assuming the police used some kind of solvent to free her hands, unless it was that poundshop glue. She should have gone to Wilkinsons. I use Gorilla glue, that's good stuff.

Gorilla glue is a commitment. I admire that.

Quote by AngelEthics

Gorilla glue is a commitment. I admire that.

Yup! Used it in the penguin house at Chester zoo. Took them three hours to extricate me.

Quote by AngelEthics

What if you're not white, male, or hetero? Is it OK, then, to express this opinion, or does one need another level of marginalization, like a disability?

I pointed out it was easy/safe to express such opinion if there are no negative consequences to the person expressing them.

Quote by ElCoco

I've given you the opportunity you've taken to freely express why you've changed your focus from freedom of speech to your guess about my race, sexual preferences, and sex. Do you think this discussion would have been improved by having your post deleted or your account suspended because you did what Dr. Stock wants to do?

How is what I did the same as what Dr. Stock wants to do? I merely guessed your identity by what you post. I didn't say your identity is invalid. In fact the identity I guessed aligns for the most part with my own.

Quote by AngelEthics

I would expect that restroom queue for the ladies to get longer if anyone feminine-identifying can use the space. If society wants to go this route, we should seriously consider new building codes for restrooms sizes.

That seems to suggests that there are more transwomen than transmen. Do you have any evidence for that?

Quote by noll

That seems to suggests that there are more transwomen than transmen. Do you have any evidence for that?

at present, there is no real evidence of this, no. it's currently supposition based on a variety of things, but yeah, no proven scientific evidence at this point in time. i could easily find information claiming there are more MtF, or more FtM, or that they are equal in number.

Quote by sprite

at present, there is no real evidence of this, no. it's currently supposition based on a variety of things, but yeah, no proven scientific evidence at this point in time. i could easily find information claiming there are more MtF, or more FtM, or that they are equal in number.

I guess transwomen are often more visible than transmen.

Quote by sprite

at present, there is no real evidence of this, no. it's currently supposition based on a variety of things, but yeah, no proven scientific evidence at this point in time. i could easily find information claiming there are more MtF, or more FtM, or that they are equal in number.

Hi Spritey,

Is this for individuals that have gone through the entire process of hormone treatment and transformative surgery? Surely there are records of that? But if it includes people self identifying, and everything inbetween then I agree the number is unknowable.

D x

Quote by ElCoco

If men can become women and women can become men, I wonder why you guess transwomen are often more visible than transmen.

Can you think of any essential differences?

If I might respond to that. The effects of testesterone means that transmen who undergo the full transition are often indistinguishable from men. Obviously this is less so for transmen who have merely adopted gender nonconformity. Transformative surgery and hormones appears to be less effective in making transwomen look typically female, again owing to the effects of testosterone. Obvious exceptions in the public sphere being Georgie Stone and Blair White.

Quote by ElCoco

I'm sure some men can look like women with enough drugs and surgery.

My interpretation of "transmen who have merely adopted gender nonconformity" is "cross-dressing men." If that's wrong, please update me.

If, as you say, a female-to-male's transition is more likely to produce an appearance closer to a male than a male-to-female transition is to create an appearance closer to a female, the root cause might be an essential difference.

That's where it moves from fact to deep controversy.

Quote by noll

That seems to suggests that there are more transwomen than transmen. Do you have any evidence for that?

There is a slight tilt that makes the percentage of transwomen higher than the percentage of transmen (40% to 35%, with the rest nonbinary). That's been historically constant until about 2012. Then, there was a paradigm shift where referrals to gender clinics were 2/3 female born. So, you may be right. We may (eventually, though probably not now) have as many trans men as trans women using cross sex facilities.

Which, if like most trans people, they're not having bottom surgery, means there should probably be a building code update for men's restrooms, as well. They're going to need more stalls.

Quote by noll

I guess transwomen are often more visible than transmen.

I think this is true for multiple reasons.

In my personal experience, transmen tend to stay in the female facilities until they believe they pass. Transwomen start using the women's facilities as part of their coming out and transition. If you think about risk, this makes perfect sense. A transman is risking his safety by using the men's restroom, just because of the environment.

I also think that the nature of male socialization makes transwomen more assertive, and therefore more visible. In return, they they recently have been getting high profile accolades, making them still more visible. Caitlyn Jenner as Glamour's Woman of the Year in 2015. Rachel Levine as the first four star trans officer in the Public Health Corps. (The white house called her the first female four star officer, which sure felt like a shattered glass ceiling to me as a woman /s). Alba Rueda getting one of the International Women of courage awards this year. A Pulitzer Prize this year going to Andrea Long Chu.

Also, in sports. The winners are on a podium. Sex differences can be pretty obvious, especially in athletes.

Quote by ElCoco

I'm sure some men can look like women with enough drugs and surgery.

My interpretation of "transmen who have merely adopted gender nonconformity" is "cross-dressing men." If that's wrong, please update me.

If, as you say, a female-to-male's transition is more likely to produce an appearance closer to a male than a male-to-female transition is to create an appearance closer to a female, the root cause might be an essential difference.

I would argue that males get more mileage out of estrogen. Women get more mileage out of surgery.

Men can at least get small breast formation from estrogen. If they choose not to have bottom surgery-- and I wouldn't blame them if they didn't-- they still get some of the secondary sex characteristics. Those who are born female must get surgery to masculinize their chests, or they're stuck binding indefinitely.

Quote by AngelEthics

I would argue that males get more mileage out of estrogen. Women get more mileage out of surgery.

Men can at least get small breast formation from estrogen. If they choose not to have bottom surgery-- and I wouldn't blame them if they didn't-- they still get some of the secondary sex characteristics. Those who are born female must get surgery to masculinize their chests, or they're stuck binding indefinitely.

You may have a point, although the effects of testosterone are dramatic.

It seems the conversation regarding the peril of free speech has run its course, as we've now arrived at the science/processes of transitioning. Please feel free to continue this conversation in a dedicated thread.

This one will now be locked.